2012 US Presidential Election.

[pilferk]

And the stock market nose dives.  Saw that one coming, give it a week.

So I'm voting for the New Jersey Governor next time.  When asked why Romney lost, "he didn't get enough votes".  I love that guy. 

Think we need a GNR concert at Red Rocks in Colorado. 

The market dropped, largely, because there is fear of the upcoming fiscal cliff.  That isn't, so much, because of Obama.  Remember, this is an artificial cliff created by the REPUBS...mostly for political gain (and to play obstructionist to the Dems and Obama).  It's because there will STILL need to be compromise (Dems retained control of the Senate)...and there is very little evidence coming from Repub House leadership that they're willing to do it.  Witness the Speakers comments the day BEFORE the election.

If Christie runs in 2016...I'll probably vote for him, too.  Assuming he stays the Christie who is governor of NJ..and doesn't let the party turn him into an ultra-conservative.

[WAR41]

Yeah I mentioned that I think they should change their stance on social issues.  To me its incredibly frustrating that this race may have been lost because of the right's stance on issues like abortion.  Those laws will never change and the fact that abortion is still a huge social issue (on both sides) is baffling to me. 

I think the problem is that so many people are turned off when they hear numbers.  When you talk about a country that is trillions of dollars in debt, nobody really understands what exactly that means because we have not seen the consequences of it.  The debt has to stop at some point, right?  It HAS to stop.  I am not saying we'll ever have a balanced budget or a surplus anytime soon, but fiscal conservatism has to take over soon.  The silver lining in this is that it really does set up Chris Christie for a run in 2016. 

And you mention that Obama won because of women and minorities.  The minority vote does not surprise me one bit.  If you looked at his Gallup Poll approval ratings among minorities throughout his first term I don't think they ever fell below 88% among African Americans, where among other groups it was notably lower.  I glanced at past presidents minority approval ratings and it was nowhere near those heights.  Minorities predominantly voted based on skin color and nothing more which is very sad. 

Anyways, I am curious to see what happens.  I am not as annoyed as I was in 2008, but I am much more interested in the next 4 years than I was in 2008. 

Oh and I am very disappointed that Gary Johnson only got 1% of the vote.  He deserved more than that. 

I take offense that you infer people voted for Obama because they don't understand trillion dollar debts. Or that social issues only is what cost the Republicans the election.

People believed Obama when he says were moving in the right direction and evidence backs him up and points to the economy being on the rise.

You infer that minorities voted because of the color of their skin. Maybe they voted because of so many national candidates saying thats why they vote. Maybe they voted because they don't like seeing a black guy called a racist by white people on fox news. Maybe they voted because their sick tired of being called illegals who need to go back to mexico. Maybe they are sick of people telling them all they want to do is suck on the government tit.

Or Maybe they voted because they worked in Ohio and kept their job when Obama bailed out the auto industry. Maybe they like his health care reform. Maybe they actually look at Europe and realize massive austerity isn't having a positive effect. Maybe they voted because they blame republicans for this massive financial breakdown in 08 and don't believe 4 years is long enough to fix this mess.

Republicans continue to believe that Obama got the minority vote this time and last time but they still don't think the democrats will pick up next time. They don't think minorities or women are smart enough to follow issues.. They continue to dumb down both groups and don't believe these groups will respond.

4 years ago we elected a president. The next day wacked out republicans said the world is going to end and the country is going to shit. We are better off than we were four years ago and we'll be better off 4 years from now.

Haha I didn't say that at all!  I said people in general are turned off by numbers, and that's on both sides.  Not once did I infer that it was only Obama supporters who did that.  I also clarified by saying that we have not seen the true consequence of these debts so its hard to understand how big of an issue it can/will be.  And why would you 'take offense' to that?  You are on a GNR message board and I am pretty sure Axl has said things MUCH worse than that LOL.  Maybe you should start listening to Hanson.  

And as far as the minority vote I stand by what I said.  Unemployment rates among African Americans overall is about 16% I believe (fact checker pilferk I encourage you to chime in if you know the exact number), and its even worse among African American men.  Go look at past presidents' approval ratings among African Americans and look at the unemployment rate among African Americans during that period.  Obama has them all beat by a long shot even with high unemployment and even higher underemployment.  

And as far as us being better off than we were 4 years ago, I think you'd find MANY who disagree.  

[WAR41]

  Minorities predominantly voted based on skin color and nothing more which is very sad. 

What is your definition of minorities? You do realize that caucasian births in the U.S. have now been surpassed by everything else. Some people may think this is an abomination but it's a fact.

It annoys me when I hear that blacks just voted for Obama based on skin color. I live in a more rural area and can tell you just as many whites voted against him because of skin color. The covert (and overt) racism that still exists in our country is pretty amazing, but I think it is changing.

Look at some numbers (ballpark) on how people voted:
African Americans - about 85-15 Obama
Latinos - about 75-25 Obama
Women - about 67-33 Obama

So Romney basically got pummeled in every category besides white males. Republicans won the popular vote in 1 out of the last 6 presidential elections. As long as the Republican base continues to believe that the above groups are uniformed voters who don't care about trillion dollar debts, etc. they will continue to lose national elections. Simple as that.

Since you seem to believe that Romney had a shot at winning the African American vote, please tell me how he could have done it.  I am dying to hear this. 

[LunsJail]

  Minorities predominantly voted based on skin color and nothing more which is very sad. 

What is your definition of minorities? You do realize that caucasian births in the U.S. have now been surpassed by everything else. Some people may think this is an abomination but it's a fact.

It annoys me when I hear that blacks just voted for Obama based on skin color. I live in a more rural area and can tell you just as many whites voted against him because of skin color. The covert (and overt) racism that still exists in our country is pretty amazing, but I think it is changing.

Look at some numbers (ballpark) on how people voted:
African Americans - about 85-15 Obama
Latinos - about 75-25 Obama
Women - about 67-33 Obama

So Romney basically got pummeled in every category besides white males. Republicans won the popular vote in 1 out of the last 6 presidential elections. As long as the Republican base continues to believe that the above groups are uniformed voters who don't care about trillion dollar debts, etc. they will continue to lose national elections. Simple as that.

Since you seem to believe that Romney had a shot at winning the African American vote, please tell me how he could have done it.  I am dying to hear this. 

I don't believe he had a shot at winning that vote. Just pointing out that if you don't get your ass kicked in by every category but white males and you win a very close election.

I'm also not taking sides or criticizing Romney specifically here. Just pointing out what Republicans may need to focus on to stop losing presidential elections. Coming off the abortion issue would be key to the women vote but I realize they still have to appeal to far right as well. Rock and a hard place.

[pilferk]

And as far as the minority vote I stand by what I said.  Unemployment rates among African Americans overall is about 16% I believe (fact checker pilferk I encourage you to chime in if you know the exact number), and its even worse among African American men.  Go look at past presidents' approval ratings among African Americans and look at the unemployment rate among African Americans during that period.  Obama has them all beat by a long shot even with high unemployment and even higher underemployment.  

The African American unemployment rate is 14.6.

It was 13.4 when Obama took office.

So, now...you're going to say "Hey, look, unemployment for that minority went up..that's BAD".  It's a common conservative talking point.

Here's the problem:  The African American segment of the workforce, AND the number of African Americans looking for work (as opposed to NOT looking for work, which was the case in late 2008 and artificially deflated their percentage) has never been higher.  Ever.  Their wage scale has never been higher.   Just looking at the unemployment rate doesn't tell the whole story.  It's true of the unemployment rate that you see widely reported in the media, too.  It's unadjusted.

Again, look at the policy.  If you can't see how his policy and philosophy isn't minority and women friendly....you're just ignoring the data and facts.

And as far as us being better off than we were 4 years ago, I think you'd find MANY who disagree.  

And there always will be. Anecdotal information isn't all that compelling.

But if you look at the objective economic benchmarks, they've pretty much all improved.  Unemployment (adjusted and unadjusted), job growth, GDP, the housing market, the stock market....all show marked improvement.

The homogonized "we", not a specific "we", are doing better.  Whether we'll continue to do better, or if the improvement will actually pick up in pace...that's a better question.

[pilferk]

Since you seem to believe that Romney had a shot at winning the African American vote, please tell me how he could have done it.  I am dying to hear this. 

To jump in a bit:

See, that's the rub.

He doesn't have to win.

He has to not lose by 80 points in that voting block.

He has to not lose women by 30 points.

He has to not lose Latinos by 50 points.

He has to give those voting blocks something to consider, to at least give some of them pause and consider voting for him in more than token numbers.

You can't tailor your policy and positions to White Male Landowners anymore.  Unless you plan on losing, a LOT.

I'm certainly not saying they have to abandon ship and put on Bill Press masks.  There is ample room for movement from where the Repubs are now, and where the Dems are now.  Closer doesn't mean "on top of".  But the current Repub platform isn't built to win national elections.  It's just not. Not with the way this nation has changed.

[Mysteron]

These election results spell "problem" for the Republican party.

Here's the problem:

Demographically, they can not win a national election, going forward, with the social policies and positions they're adopting.  Reportedly, they won the White vote by 20 points and the white male vote by closer to 30+.  There were models that showed they might be able to squeak this one out, but the way the demos are changing in our country...it would likely have been the last one.  And..they didn't win it.

And they lost just about every battleground state (pending Florida's results..though it looks likely that will end up blue).  Largely, that's because of the minority vote and the women's vote.  It doesn't look like the Repubs can blame "historic" turnout this time, either.   There were roughly 20 million less votes cast this time by the looks of things (final numbers are a few days away)  Romney looks like he lost the Latino vote by near 50 points.  He lost the African American vote by near 80 points.  He lost white women by 25+.  And you see Obama winning the popular vote by 2 million-ish votes, or about 2 points.

Ponder this: The Repubs have lost the popular vote 5 of the past 6 elections....with 2004 being the only exception.  I know...Electoral College.  But it's still indicative of a larger issue for the Repubs, IMHO.

Their conundrum is how they make substantive changes that win them national elections...but continue to support their socially conservative base so they can win the Senate and House elections...especially in the stalwart Red states.

Senate stays in Dem hands too (something you would have thought impossible after the mid-terms). House stays with Repubs...not sure if the Dems picked up any seats or not.  I haven't seen a final-final tally.

Is it possible that groups outside of white males voted for Obama, and not the party he stands for.

And given a situation in the future where two white males face each other again, the results could be very different?

[Sober_times]

Haha I didn't say that at all!  I said people in general are turned off by numbers, and that's on both sides.  Not once did I infer that it was only Obama supporters who did that.  I also clarified by saying that we have not seen the true consequence of these debts so its hard to understand how big of an issue it can/will be.  And why would you 'take offense' to that?  You are on a GNR message board and I am pretty sure Axl has said things MUCH worse than that LOL.  Maybe you should start listening to Hanson.  

And as far as the minority vote I stand by what I said.  Unemployment rates among African Americans overall is about 16% I believe (fact checker pilferk I encourage you to chime in if you know the exact number), and its even worse among African American men.  Go look at past presidents' approval ratings among African Americans and look at the unemployment rate among African Americans during that period.  Obama has them all beat by a long shot even with high unemployment and even higher underemployment.  

And as far as us being better off than we were 4 years ago, I think you'd find MANY who disagree.  

I took you starting with this election as being based on social issues and than questioning peoples knowledge of debts as stating Obama was elected by uninformed voters who voted wrong. I thought that was a fair characteristic of what you said and took offense to that. Regardless of rather this being a GNR board or anything else. I took what you said as questioning my intelligence on who I voted for and the intelligence of a majority of votes. I took offense to that. If I was wrong than I apologize.

I don't agree on your assessment of minority voting. Maybe i'm too optimistic or not cynical enough but i do think most people have a basic grasp of what is going on and voted because they feel they and the country will be better served by Obama(whether they are wrong or not is a different debate). Now I don't think that means all of them are people waiting for a handout.

Republicans cannot expect to get a minority vote when they call them illegals, government tit suckers and uneducated fools looking for constant dependency. I also think Obama and democrats did really well on convincing people this recovery will take time. I think people bought into that. That this economy is still the fault of Bush and republicans(again whether that is correct or not is a different debate).

[pilferk]

Is it possible that groups outside of white males voted for Obama, and not the party he stands for.

And given a situation in the future where two white males face each other again, the results could be very different?

Possible? Sure...but not overly likely.  Largely because the party he stands for espouses positions and programs that are friendly to those demographics...and the Republicans don't.  It's really that simple.

We've certainly seen a fair amount of people who vote against their perceived best interests (Warren Buffet, for example)...but I don't think there's any evidence that it's a widespread phenomenon amongst those voting blocks.

It's also a trend that's held true since the Clinton era.  It started with Bill, in '92, and those margins have held (or, in the case of women, widened) in almost every election since.  Those minority voting blocks are supporting the Dems in larger and larger sheer numbers, but the % are relatively constant..  Not JUST in the presidential race..but in Senate and House races, too.   Again, look at this election for evidence.  Or, if you want, look at Bush vs Kerry in 2004.

Kerry won African Americans 88 to 11.
Kerry won Latinos by 11 (but not 50). Much of that, IMHO, was his support for increasing border patrols and restructuring the border security, itself.
Kerry won women by only 3 (but minority women by 50).

Gore (2000) won African Americans 90 to 10.
Gore won Latinos 65 to 30
Gore won women by only 2 points but minority women by 40).

The rub  is: The Dems are maintaining the margins of the past 2 decades in those minority voting blocks (though they've made significant inroads with women)...and those blocks are increasing, exponentially, in size.

[WAR41]

Not that I base my opinion on this clip, but you guys have all gotta check out this clip from the Howard Stern show before the 2008 election.  Sal went up to Harlem and asked voters some questions.  Its hilarious and frightening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5p3OB6roAg

[pilferk]

Not that I base my opinion on this clip, but you guys have all gotta check out this clip from the Howard Stern show before the 2008 election.  Sal went up to Harlem and asked voters some questions.  Its hilarious and frightening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5p3OB6roAg

Creative "candid camera" style editing at it's finest.

Sal did an interview about that clip, back in 2008.  It took him something like 14 hours, and HUNDREDS of "on the street" interviews to get those clips.

Given the same amount of time, in a different geographic locale...how many birthers/"Obama is a muslim trying to destroy our country" voters do you think you'd find?

I don't think anyone will argue there are uneducated, uninformed, and/or "brainwashed" members of the electorate on BOTH sides.  For every person interviewed in the clip you provided, there is an equally clueless rah rah Rush Limbaugh loving dittohead on the other.

[LunsJail]

Not that I base my opinion on this clip, but you guys have all gotta check out this clip from the Howard Stern show before the 2008 election.  Sal went up to Harlem and asked voters some questions.  Its hilarious and frightening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5p3OB6roAg

Creative "candid camera" style editing at it's finest.

Sal did an interview about that clip, back in 2008.  It took him something like 14 hours, and HUNDREDS of "on the street" interviews to get those clips.

Given the same amount of time, in a different geographic locale...how many birthers/"Obama is a muslim trying to destroy our country" voters do you think you'd find?

I don't think anyone will argue there are uneducated, uninformed, and/or "brainwashed" members of the electorate on BOTH sides.  For every person interviewed in the clip you provided, there is an equally clueless rah rah Rush Limbaugh loving dittohead on the other.

I agree, you will find people like that on both sides of the fence. But the clip is still really funny!

[tim_m]

The Latino population is the fastest growing in the US. That is a huge problem for the republican party. They have to find a way to bridge the gap. They are growing fast and are increasingly liberal. Also, another huge issue is same sex marriage. 3 more states made it legal and Minnesota struck down an amendment to define it between a man and a woman. This is another huge problem for the republicans, cause the young people are speaking up in huge numbers for equality for everyone.

[cineater]

And Boeing is first out of the gate.  That had nothing to do with the election.  We're all looking for peace and those defense cuts were coming.  That's just a well timed memo they've had waiting around to release.  I wouldn't sell off my Boeing stock just yet, there's space and they are a player.  Notice they said they were shifting 30 percent of their upper management jobs out of defense, didn't say they were cutting those jobs.

So if I go to that GNR concert in Colorado and partake in all legal activities but return to my state and am drug dropped the first day I'm back by my employer and screened to have a drug in my system that is illegal in my state, can I be fired?  (Never mind the legal issue that was one long complicated sentence! )

[Smoking Guns]

Repubs will get Latino vote back. Bush had 50 percent in 2,000. Blacks voted for Obama mainly cause he is black. Save the political correctness for somewhere else. No way in hell they would vote for Mitt with Obama there. Also they would have rejected Herman Cain as a real black because the Dems like MSNBC told then he was just a puppet for the white man. Suburban white women voted for Barack for many reasons. Women's rights, he is black, he is cool, he is for poor people. Young people voted for Barack because they are fucking idiots and don't realize there are no jobs for them when they graduate.

White men plus Mexican vote will trump blacks and suburban women. Repubs need to EMBRACE immigration.

[tim_m]

Repubs will get Latino vote back. Bush had 50 percent in 2,000. Blacks voted for Obama mainly cause he is black. Save the political correctness for somewhere else. No way in hell they would vote for Mitt with Obama there. Also they would have rejected Herman Cain as a real black because the Dems like MSNBC told then he was just a puppet for the white man. Suburban white women voted for Barack for many reasons. Women's rights, he is black, he is cool, he is for poor people. Young people voted for Barack because they are fucking idiots and don't realize there are no jobs for them when they graduate.

White men plus Mexican vote will trump blacks and suburban women. Repubs need to EMBRACE immigration.

Keep telling yourself that you might actually believe it to be true. There are many young people who will take offense to having their intelligence insulted like that.

[Smoking Guns]

I own three businesses, when these college kids do and see how shit works maybe they will think different. Wait until they see their first paycheck and see how much is taken from it. Ha ha.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Here's a good question- why is there no standardized system for voting? One state uses voting machines, while another uses paper ballots. One state you have to show I.D. so you can prove who you are and are eligible to vote. Others you do not need an I.D. You'd think by now we would have our act together.

Even the UN Observers took note of our system: http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/11/06/foreign_election_officials_amazed_by_trust_based_us_voting_system

"The most often noted difference between American elections among the visitors was that in most U.S. states, voters need no identification. Voters can also vote by mail, sometimes online, and there's often no way to know if one person has voted several times under different names, unlike in some Arab countries, where voters ink their fingers when casting their ballots. "

Voting irregularities and voter fraud happens every election. People bitch and complain for a day or so before and after an election. Then we do nothing about it.

[Smoking Guns]

I agree. States run their own voting, but there needs to be standards in place.

[Sober_times]

I own three businesses, when these college kids do and see how shit works maybe they will think different. Wait until they see their first paycheck and see how much is taken from it. Ha ha.

Good for you. You own three buisness. Doesn't seem like that gave you great political insight. Otherwise you wouldn't lump in all young voters as complete idiots.

I was young, still am at 31. I remember my father telling me when he was alive that when I started making real money and carving a life for myself I wouldn't be so liberal. He was wrong. Quite wrong in fact. Don't see myself ever being a republican. In fact I closely align with the progressive caucus on most issues. In other words, I am far left. In fact, most college educated people vote Democrat. So in theory one could actually argue as more and more people attend college its possible more and more people become liberal.

The Hispanic vote is growing. Doubled since 2000. The Hispanic electorate is a lot different than it was 12 years ago and will only continue to grow. Its going to take a lot more than immigration to get them on the side of republicans.

Everybody talks about Obama getting the black vote. Gore got 88% of blacks who showed up, so did Kerry. Obama got a lot more to show up but lets stop pretending African Americans only vote for Obama because he's black. They have voted democrat for years for a variety of reasons. He may have got more to show up to the polls but they already voted democrat. Herman Cain wouldn't get elected because he doesn't align himself with their interests. Not because he's a "puppet."

 I believe if Obama has a decent second term, democrats will have no problem getting the same coalition together to vote for the next democrat president. Republican voters are white. White people are becoming less and less of the electorate. Republicans are screwed for next time unless the country is in the complete shitter. They are not going to win over all those minorities in four years unless they shift left on a variety of issues. That just isn't going to happen in four years. Too many left leaning minorities and too many years of harsh rhetoric from the republican party towards them.

Republicans need to understand that just having a Latino run isn't going to give them the vote. What an insult to Hispanics. They are already saying if Rubio ran we had this election. Its nuts. It just doesn't work that way. Just being a black guy didn't get the black vote to Obama. Him being a DEMOCRAT black guy is what gave him that vote because they are already a strong democrat minority.