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Author Topic: 2015 Baseball season/Off Season Discussion  (Read 158716 times)
pilferk
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2015, 09:40:34 AM »

He was also an 8 time all star. A world series winner 3x cy young winner. triple crown winner. all star game mvp, al wins champion, 5 time al  era champion an 3 time al strikeouts champion. All that certainly helped.

I'm not a believer that winning the all star fan balloting means anything (nor does being selected by the guy who happens to be your manager), so...I'll discount the 8 times all star thing. Ditto anything to do with All star MVP wins.

As I said, he was a god for about 6 seasons. Untouchable (except, maybe, by the Yankees). Pretty much everything you mention happened during those 6 seasons.

And then he had 12 seasons of....good not great. Slightly above average.

Again, I'll say it: He belongs in the hall for those 6 seasons, alone.  The overall numbers, and their distribution, just don't scream "first ballot", to me.  Randy's do (despite his time with the Yanks being mediocre). Smoltz's do. Pedro...it's borderline.  Pedro was Cy Young for 6 seasons, and Andy Pettitte for 12.

And his other antics, for me, move him a little closer to that border.
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2015, 09:55:04 AM »

Good stats Tim. Those surely look 1st ballot worthy to me. I realize his "dominance" was only over a 6 year period, but you have to factor in the era in which he did it. Offense was at a premium, and he made hitters look foolish. His numbers looked like they came from the Dead Ball Era.

It was still only 6 years.   That's a short prime career for a 1 ballot HOFer...pitcher or position player.  I mean....look at King Felix.  He's a 1 ballot HOF waiting to happen, IMHO. Look at his career numbers so far (4 seasons with an ERA under 3, 9 seasons with an era under 4) in 10 seasons.  Look at Randy Johnson's numbers. Look at his career numbers and their distribution (9 seasons with an ERA under 3, 19 seasons with an ERA under 4) in 22 seasons.   I guess, for me, 1st ballot means more of a sustained period of greatness OR overwhelming career totals.  Or, rather, the longer your period of greatness or the more overwhelming the career numbers are....the further "over the border" you go. Pedros numbers and overall durability/duration, for me, put him "close" to that border.

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Obviously I loved Pedro as a competitor, so I could overlook the "head hunting" and such. As long as he produced, and he did so quite often.

As a fan of the teams he played for, sure.  I completely get that.  But the people voting are not just writers from Boston...and those kinds of antics on the mound don't win you friends.

BUT, being a baseball analyst, and an affable gladhander, after your career is over, does help make those members of the media forget...especially when you're shaking hands and openly swapping stories of the days during your career.

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But I did see this article by the writer who didn't hand his ballot in. He said it was a mistake on his part, which sounds suspect. But he talks about whether he would've voted for Pedro or not. He says he thought he was a punk and hated him for dominating the Indians, but ultimately would've cast a vote for him.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2015/01/coming_clean_about_why_i_didnt.html#incart_story_package

Thats' homer bunk, IMHO.

The only point he makes in the article that I agree with is the example of Pedro throwing at someone's head, and then hiding behind his hitting coach when the benches cleared. THAT'S precisely the kind of stuff I remember coming from him...not just against the Yanks, but against the league, in general.  Enough of it that writers might take notice, and have it give them pause.

He WAS a punk on the mound.  And it either bothered you enough to give you pause, or it doesn't.  Fair enough.

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I also read a few articles where voters didn't vote for Pedro and RJ because they felt there were more than 10 worthy candidates on the ballot and felt they would get in anyway. That's just wrong. If you feel a guy is a HOF, vote for him. Don't rely on others to do it for you. They really need to look into making some changes. Why limit it to 10 votes if there are more than that worthy?

Yeah, that's crap.  Though I will say...it was a VERY crowded class this year, so, while it's crap, at least it's a tiny bit more understandable crap this year than it has been in years past (when the same sorts of excuses get brought out).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:57:57 AM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2015, 10:32:55 AM »

It all depends on your point of view I guess. The anti Pedro view is that he would cowardly hide behind teammates when he went "head hunting". The pro Pedro view is that he stuck up for his teammates. He pitched inside with a purpose to gain an advantage. And lets face it, he was extremely slight of build. It wouldn't have made much sense for him to start throwing haymakers in a brawl. Overall, he was smart. He wasn't the most durable guy as it was, so why risk injury if others have your back? As admirable as it is for a pitcher to stand his ground, how much did Zack Greinke help the Dodgers when he broke his collar bone in a fracas?

Pedro pitching was appointment viewing. It's unfortunate he didn't stay at the top of his game for longer, but it was a pleasure watching him while it lasted.

I think Piazza probably makes it next year. Maybe Bagwell, Raines, or Schilling. I think Bonds and Clemens eventually get in, but it may take awhile.
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2015, 12:10:36 PM »

It all depends on your point of view I guess. The anti Pedro view is that he would cowardly hide behind teammates when he went "head hunting". The pro Pedro view is that he stuck up for his teammates.

Sorry, I call bullshit.  If you're going to risk someone else's career by throwing near their chin (or at their head)....I don't care how slight your build is, I don't care how important you are to your team, you better do more than hide behind your hitting coach when it comes time to back up your actions. Because if you don't, all you're doing is potentially endangering your teammates..some of whom are JUST as important to the team as you are.

I'd also disagree he was "sticking up for his teammates". Considering in just about every case I can remember, it was Pedro taking the first shot...I'd say it's closer to the truth that he was putting them in danger...since pitching in the AL, Pedro wasn't getting in the box...which means it was someone else taking the heat when the OTHER team decided to get their pound of flesh.

I'd remove the "judgement words" in the above statement (cowardly, for example)..but, yeah...he threw at guys.  And the few times there was retaliation on the field, he either ducked behind someone else, or headed for the 80 year old man. 

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He pitched inside with a purpose to gain an advantage.

There is a marked difference between throwing inside, and throwing AT people, specifically high and tight.

I have no problem with one.  And I have no problem when one gets away from you, either.

But, lets not fool ourselves, or rewrite history, here.  He threw at peoples heads.  He threatened to throw at peoples heads. If you wanna chalk that up to "gaining an advantage" via intimidation.....and that it's all OK..then I firmly expect the next words out of your mouth to be praise for Joba Chamberlain throwing at Youk, repeatedly.

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And lets face it, he was extremely slight of build. It wouldn't have made much sense for him to start throwing haymakers in a brawl. Overall, he was smart. He wasn't the most durable guy as it was, so why risk injury if others have your back? As admirable as it is for a pitcher to stand his ground, how much did Zack Greinke help the Dodgers when he broke his collar bone in a fracas?

I'm sorry..but there's no way to call the above anything other than outright fandom.

Admit the guy had foibles.  He was a bit of a hothead, and he had no problem taking it out on the guys he faced in the box.

It wasn't smart, it wasn't admirable.  It was being a punk. It was being a punk when Pedro did it, it was being a punk when Joba did it, it was being a punk when Clemens did it.  A spade is a spade.

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Pedro pitching was appointment viewing. It's unfortunate he didn't stay at the top of his game for longer, but it was a pleasure watching him while it lasted.

On that, we agree.  Part of the appointment viewing was, quite frankly, watching him be a punk.  He was charismatic, unpredictable, and almost unhittable (and when he WAS getting hit, or having a bad game...there might even be fireworks!).

But other guys have had 6 great years, and then 12 slightly above average ones.  They didn't have 6 years AS great..but still.  And they are either on the outside, looking in to the HOF OR they were not 1st ballot HOF elections.

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I think Piazza probably makes it next year. Maybe Bagwell, Raines, or Schilling. I think Bonds and Clemens eventually get in, but it may take awhile.

Piazza, for sure.

Raines, probably.

Bagwell and Schilling? Borderline (Schilling for some of the same reasons Pedro wouldn't have been a 1st ballot HOF selection, for me).

Bonds and Clemens? I doubt it.  I don't think enough minds will change, regarding their steroid use, by the time their eligibility is up.  I think Clemens has the better shot......but I don't think Bonds will sniff the inside of the HOF, unless he's elected by the vets (possible).

« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 12:15:07 PM by pilferk » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2015, 03:40:04 PM »

Ok, so they announce the 2015 HOF inductees tomorrow. Who gets in? Johnson, Raines and Martinez for sure. Who else? Biggio? Smoltz? Piazza? Bagwell?

Raines for sure?

I don't think he's going to get there this year unfortunately.

Johnson and Martinez most definitely along with Biggio and Smoltz probably.

I'm a little surprised at Pedro's "sure fire" first ballot status.  I honestly think his time as an analyst have made the writers warm up to him, a LOT.  Even going into last season, I wasn't convinced he'd end up elected on the  first ballot.  Longevity and productivity, as well as his "curmudgeon" factor (and..Don Zimmer)...I THOUGHT might cost him a year.

But, by all accounts...it looks like he's in.
I never understood your stance on not thinking Pedro was a 1st ballot HOF. I understand he didn't have the lengthiest career. He didn't have 300 wins or 4000 K's. But he dominated hitters in the steroid era. You put his stats up against any other pitcher in that era and there's no comparison. He was the best pitcher in baseball over a 6 year span. I'm shocked he only got 91% of the vote.

Maybe your views come from the fact that the Yankees handled Pedro as well as any team during his career. And I always thought he was affable as they come and got along well with the media. Again, I could be a bit biased I guess. Wouldn't be the first time.
I've always thought he was first ballot. I personally dislike him as a person for obvious reasons but the fact still remains he was flat out dominant for a good portion of his career.

About a third. 6 out of about 18 seasons. About half his career wins come in those 6 seasons, too.
He has other good seasons sprinkled in, to be sure...and a few clunkers, too.
Outside those 6 years, hes about a 3.75 era, 13-15 win pitcher (if you project a bit...his later seasons are almost all shortened).

He was also an 8 time all star. A world series winner 3x cy young winner. triple crown winner. all star game mvp, al wins champion, 5 time al  era champion an 3 time al strikeouts champion. All that certainly helped.
Good stats Tim. Those surely look 1st ballot worthy to me. I realize his "dominance" was only over a 6 year period, but you have to factor in the era in which he did it. Offense was at a premium, and he made hitters look foolish. His numbers looked like they came from the Dead Ball Era.

Obviously I loved Pedro as a competitor, so I could overlook the "head hunting" and such. As long as he produced, and he did so quite often. But I did see this article by the writer who didn't hand his ballot in. He said it was a mistake on his part, which sounds suspect. But he talks about whether he would've voted for Pedro or not. He says he thought he was a punk and hated him for dominating the Indians, but ultimately would've cast a vote for him.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2015/01/coming_clean_about_why_i_didnt.html#incart_story_package

I also read a few articles where voters didn't vote for Pedro and RJ because they felt there were more than 10 worthy candidates on the ballot and felt they would get in anyway. That's just wrong. If you feel a guy is a HOF, vote for him. Don't rely on others to do it for you. They really need to look into making some changes. Why limit it to 10 votes if there are more than that worthy?
And that goes back to Keith Olbermann among others who say the voting system is entirely screwed up and needs to be completely revamped.
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2015, 05:05:36 PM »

Pedro didn't just have 6 great years. He was elite for those 6 years. The best pitcher in the game. Dominant when guys were routinely hitting 50 bombs. All that needs to be taken into context.

He threw inside with a purpose. There's no doubt about that. He had impeccable control, so if he hit someone, he meant it. I also don't ever recall him actually hitting anyone in the head. Did he go up and in? Sure did. But it was all about intimidation. It's part of the game. Am I a fanboy for sticking up for him? Damn right! I hate it when guys do it to the Sox. Joba had some weird problem with Youkilis, so that situation was comical. Pedro didn't continually go after the same guy over and over. There's a difference. When the Yankees finally went after Ortiz, my reaction was "it's about time". I never heard one teammate complain about Pedro putting them in harm's way.

It is what it is. He was the greatest pitcher I've ever seen, and I loved cheering for him. I wouldn't expect a Yankees fan to feel the same.
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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2015, 05:31:09 PM »

Also, about Don Zimmer. What exactly is the proper action to take when a 72 year old unexpectedly charges at you? Was he supposed to run in the other direction? Zimmer admitted he was at fault for his actions, and rightly so. I know his emotions got the best of him, but I'm not sure what other conclusion he expected. I guess he hoped to get a shot in at Pedro. Should he have just taken it? It was an ugly scene, there's no denying that. But I'm not sure what Pedro should have done differently in that situation.
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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2015, 07:34:15 PM »

Also, about Don Zimmer. What exactly is the proper action to take when a 72 year old unexpectedly charges at you? Was he supposed to run in the other direction? Zimmer admitted he was at fault for his actions, and rightly so. I know his emotions got the best of him, but I'm not sure what other conclusion he expected. I guess he hoped to get a shot in at Pedro. Should he have just taken it? It was an ugly scene, there's no denying that. But I'm not sure what Pedro should have done differently in that situation.

Um....go the other way? There was open water right behind him.  He cant move away faster than an 80 year old guy? C'mon...
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2015, 07:48:58 PM »

Pedro didn't just have 6 great years. He was elite for those 6 years. The best pitcher in the game. Dominant when guys were routinely hitting 50 bombs. All that needs to be taken into context.

..and i did. But it as still only 6 years.

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He threw inside with a purpose. There's no doubt about that. He had impeccable control, so if he hit someone, he meant it. I also don't ever recall him actually hitting anyone in the head. Did he go up and in? Sure did. But it was all about intimidation. It's part of the game. Am I a fanboy for sticking up for him? Damn right! I hate it when guys do it to the Sox. Joba had some weird problem with Youkilis, so that situation was comical. Pedro didn't continually go after the same guy over and over. There's a difference. When the Yankees finally went after Ortiz, my reaction was "it's about time". I never heard one teammate complain about Pedro putting them in harm's way.

Right. He was a punk. Thats what i said.  You liking it is precisely my point..thats your fandom talking.

Throwing up and in might be intimidation and part of the game. so is dealing with, and taking responsibility, for doing it. He was willing to take the risks, but not cash the checks.

And....thanks for proving my point with Joba. It cant be "part of the game" with Pedro, and then something else with joba, or Clemens. I can admit its a punk move on both sides....

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It is what it is. He was the greatest pitcher I've ever seen, and I loved cheering for him. I wouldn't expect a Yankees fan to feel the same.

Yeah, thats a nice try..but in this case i can categorically tell you its not my yankee fandom coloring my opinion. In fact, its the opposite. I give the guy his due despite my yankee fandom. But...as i pointed out earlier, part of that is the point: not all the voters were sox fans, here.

I do think he was the best pitcher in mlb for those 6 years (despite opining he would like to plunk the babe in the ass), by a country mile. They may have been one of the best 6 year spans of any pitcher, ever. I do think he belongs in the hall, despite all the things i pointed out.

But im not going to turn a blind eye to his negatives, either. And he had them.  You asked why i thought he might not be a first ballot guy. I told you..with some pretty good evidence to back it up...beyond "cause hes pedro and he played for the sox".  I wouldnt care if he played for the yanks, dodgers, or toledo mud hens. Believe that or not. Maybe when andys on the ballot, or jeter, you'll see my point better.

And i suspect..were he not "your guy", you might see the logic a bit more clearly, too. You've said it a few times...your perception or pov is to interpret all that stuff as flatteringly as possible when it comes to him. Thats fine..as long as we are clear about it.
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2015, 10:09:23 AM »

Also, about Don Zimmer. What exactly is the proper action to take when a 72 year old unexpectedly charges at you? Was he supposed to run in the other direction? Zimmer admitted he was at fault for his actions, and rightly so. I know his emotions got the best of him, but I'm not sure what other conclusion he expected. I guess he hoped to get a shot in at Pedro. Should he have just taken it? It was an ugly scene, there's no denying that. But I'm not sure what Pedro should have done differently in that situation.

Um....go the other way? There was open water right behind him.  He cant move away faster than an 80 year old guy? C'mon...
It was a tough spot. Maybe his first reaction was to defend himself. You don't expect or necessarily have a plan when a 70 year old man is running wild at you. Running away would've been more comical for both of them, but I don't think that's your first instinct.

I didn't say Joba throwing at Youk wasn't part of the game. Or at least I didn't mean to insinuate that. It was just weird. He had a personal vendetta against the guy. It was just different than what Pedro did. If he repeatedly threw at A-Rod, it'd be a closer comparison.

I think the whole "Pedro was a punk" and "he hid behind his teammates and coaches" logic is a bit overblown. Off the top of my head I can remember 3 instances of him throwing at or hitting guys. Karim Garcia. He hit Gerald Williams late in a game when he was pitching a no hitter and Williams charged the mound. Seems like an odd time to throw at someone. My guess is one got away from him when he was trying to pitch inside. He wasn't perfect. Then there was the game where he hit Soriano and Jeter to start off a game, and I believe both left the game after that.

He's beloved in Boston and by the local media. Always has been. That's all I know. He was a fun loving guy who liked to have a good time. But on days he pitched, he was all business. The Red Sox needed an edge to beat the Yankees. They had been beaten down enough times over the years. Pedro and Schilling helped give them that edge. And I love them for it. No apologies.
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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2015, 10:43:37 AM »

It was a tough spot. Maybe his first reaction was to defend himself. You don't expect or necessarily have a plan when a 70 year old man is running wild at you. Running away would've been more comical for both of them, but I don't think that's your first instinct.

You don't have to run.....you just back up. Again, the guy was in his late 70's.  I think you have a bit of time to think that through.

Quote
I didn't say Joba throwing at Youk wasn't part of the game. Or at least I didn't mean to insinuate that. It was just weird. He had a personal vendetta against the guy. It was just different than what Pedro did. If he repeatedly threw at A-Rod, it'd be a closer comparison.

It was different (to you) because it was "your guy" getting thrown at.

Other than that..intimidation, to gain an advantage, etc, etc.  Same thing.

I'm not sure it WAS personal.  Youk was a classic plate crowder with that stance. He'd done pretty well against Joba..until Joba decided to take back the plate.  And Youk moaned about it, so Joba retaliated.

It was a punk move, to be sure....and no different than what Pedro did.

Quote
I think the whole "Pedro was a punk" and "he hid behind his teammates and coaches" logic is a bit overblown. Off the top of my head I can remember 3 instances of him throwing at or hitting guys. Karim Garcia. He hit Gerald Williams late in a game when he was pitching a no hitter and Williams charged the mound. Seems like an odd time to throw at someone. My guess is one got away from him when he was trying to pitch inside. He wasn't perfect. Then there was the game where he hit Soriano and Jeter to start off a game, and I believe both left the game after that.

Pedro, himself, said 90% of the guys he hit were intentional. Check it, I'll wait...that's his quote. The 2 excepetions? The guys you mention above. Interesting that those are the ones you remember, though...

He hit 141 batters in 476 appearances. Or about one every 3 appearances....and you only remember THREE?? Heck, in 2000 and 2002..it was a hits batsman every other appearance (as in 1 HBP for ever 2 appearances).

Quote
He's beloved in Boston and by the local media. Always has been. That's all I know. He was a fun loving guy who liked to have a good time. But on days he pitched, he was all business. The Red Sox needed an edge to beat the Yankees. They had been beaten down enough times over the years. Pedro and Schilling helped give them that edge. And I love them for it. No apologies.

I don't expect "apologies".  But, you know...some objectivity might be in order, here. I mean, you asked the question.  I know he is loved in Boston....he brought them their first title in 86 years.  That doesn't make him perfect, though.
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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2015, 04:41:31 PM »

It was a tough spot. Maybe his first reaction was to defend himself. You don't expect or necessarily have a plan when a 70 year old man is running wild at you. Running away would've been more comical for both of them, but I don't think that's your first instinct.

You don't have to run.....you just back up. Again, the guy was in his late 70's.  I think you have a bit of time to think that through.

Quote
I didn't say Joba throwing at Youk wasn't part of the game. Or at least I didn't mean to insinuate that. It was just weird. He had a personal vendetta against the guy. It was just different than what Pedro did. If he repeatedly threw at A-Rod, it'd be a closer comparison.

It was different (to you) because it was "your guy" getting thrown at.

Other than that..intimidation, to gain an advantage, etc, etc.  Same thing.

I'm not sure it WAS personal.  Youk was a classic plate crowder with that stance. He'd done pretty well against Joba..until Joba decided to take back the plate.  And Youk moaned about it, so Joba retaliated.

It was a punk move, to be sure....and no different than what Pedro did.

Quote
I think the whole "Pedro was a punk" and "he hid behind his teammates and coaches" logic is a bit overblown. Off the top of my head I can remember 3 instances of him throwing at or hitting guys. Karim Garcia. He hit Gerald Williams late in a game when he was pitching a no hitter and Williams charged the mound. Seems like an odd time to throw at someone. My guess is one got away from him when he was trying to pitch inside. He wasn't perfect. Then there was the game where he hit Soriano and Jeter to start off a game, and I believe both left the game after that.

Pedro, himself, said 90% of the guys he hit were intentional. Check it, I'll wait...that's his quote. The 2 excepetions? The guys you mention above. Interesting that those are the ones you remember, though...

He hit 141 batters in 476 appearances. Or about one every 3 appearances....and you only remember THREE?? Heck, in 2000 and 2002..it was a hits batsman every other appearance (as in 1 HBP for ever 2 appearances).

Quote
He's beloved in Boston and by the local media. Always has been. That's all I know. He was a fun loving guy who liked to have a good time. But on days he pitched, he was all business. The Red Sox needed an edge to beat the Yankees. They had been beaten down enough times over the years. Pedro and Schilling helped give them that edge. And I love them for it. No apologies.

I don't expect "apologies".  But, you know...some objectivity might be in order, here. I mean, you asked the question.  I know he is loved in Boston....he brought them their first title in 86 years.  That doesn't make him perfect, though.
You're taking my words too literal. My comment about me only remembering him hitting guys 3 times, is that THOSE times were the only ones that stood out in a historical sense. By no means did I say he only hit 4 guys during his career. But thanks for digging up the stats unnecessarily. I'm sure Joba hit more guys than just Youk. No need to dig up those stats, I'll just assume that's the case.

You've answered my question. I get it, and accept it. But 91% of the voters disagreed with you, and some of them left him off their ballot for reasons other than him not being deserving or being a punk. Not sure how I'm not being objective. You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm giving you my thoughts on the matter. And obviously we have extremely different thoughts. No big surprise there.
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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2015, 05:52:03 PM »

It was a tough spot. Maybe his first reaction was to defend himself. You don't expect or necessarily have a plan when a 70 year old man is running wild at you. Running away would've been more comical for both of them, but I don't think that's your first instinct.

You don't have to run.....you just back up. Again, the guy was in his late 70's.  I think you have a bit of time to think that through.

Quote
I didn't say Joba throwing at Youk wasn't part of the game. Or at least I didn't mean to insinuate that. It was just weird. He had a personal vendetta against the guy. It was just different than what Pedro did. If he repeatedly threw at A-Rod, it'd be a closer comparison.

It was different (to you) because it was "your guy" getting thrown at.

Other than that..intimidation, to gain an advantage, etc, etc.  Same thing.

I'm not sure it WAS personal.  Youk was a classic plate crowder with that stance. He'd done pretty well against Joba..until Joba decided to take back the plate.  And Youk moaned about it, so Joba retaliated.

It was a punk move, to be sure....and no different than what Pedro did.

Quote
I think the whole "Pedro was a punk" and "he hid behind his teammates and coaches" logic is a bit overblown. Off the top of my head I can remember 3 instances of him throwing at or hitting guys. Karim Garcia. He hit Gerald Williams late in a game when he was pitching a no hitter and Williams charged the mound. Seems like an odd time to throw at someone. My guess is one got away from him when he was trying to pitch inside. He wasn't perfect. Then there was the game where he hit Soriano and Jeter to start off a game, and I believe both left the game after that.

Pedro, himself, said 90% of the guys he hit were intentional. Check it, I'll wait...that's his quote. The 2 excepetions? The guys you mention above. Interesting that those are the ones you remember, though...

He hit 141 batters in 476 appearances. Or about one every 3 appearances....and you only remember THREE?? Heck, in 2000 and 2002..it was a hits batsman every other appearance (as in 1 HBP for ever 2 appearances).

Quote
He's beloved in Boston and by the local media. Always has been. That's all I know. He was a fun loving guy who liked to have a good time. But on days he pitched, he was all business. The Red Sox needed an edge to beat the Yankees. They had been beaten down enough times over the years. Pedro and Schilling helped give them that edge. And I love them for it. No apologies.

I don't expect "apologies".  But, you know...some objectivity might be in order, here. I mean, you asked the question.  I know he is loved in Boston....he brought them their first title in 86 years.  That doesn't make him perfect, though.
You're taking my words too literal. My comment about me only remembering him hitting guys 3 times, is that THOSE times were the only ones that stood out in a historical sense. By no means did I say he only hit 4 guys during his career. But thanks for digging up the stats unnecessarily. I'm sure Joba hit more guys than just Youk. No need to dig up those stats, I'll just assume that's the case.

You've answered my question. I get it, and accept it. But 91% of the voters disagreed with you, and some of them left him off their ballot for reasons other than him not being deserving or being a punk. Not sure how I'm not being objective. You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm giving you my thoughts on the matter. And obviously we have extremely different thoughts. No big surprise there.

Yup, and i've explained why i think those voters might have softened, since the end of his career. I think being part of, and being available to (and i mean palling around, swapping stories, available) the media have softened some stances. Funnily enough, i think those quotes about intentionally hitting 90% of those batters, and other affable, amusing anecdotes drastically improved his chances. Even as they prove my points.

The day he retired, i would have said it would be almost impossible for him to get in on the first ballot. Monday, i would have pegged the chances at 30% that he wouldn't manage 75% (fyi, pedro was worried, himself, about hitting that number). I was wrong. It happens.

Not sure how you're not being objective? Um...in the previous posts you basically say you are a homer and going to give him the benefit of every doubt, because you, and the boston media, love him. I mean...i wasnt jumping through logical hoops to get there. I'm just saying..lfor the purposes of this dis ussion, maybe we need to put that away, and look at player x, not the guy who heled end "the curse", when looking at some of his antics on, and around, the mound.  Maybe ask ourselves "if this wasnt my guy, how would i feel about it".

Wait til we get to talk jeter and andy. Ill shock you, and commit yankee sacrilidge.
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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2015, 06:01:39 PM »

Let me put it to you this way...if jeters longevity, "clean-ness", intangibles, leadership, good sportsmanship, and general non-stat based "stuff" is going to make him a 1st ballot hof-er ( and barring huge changes, it prolly will)..... I can see clear how pedros lack of longevity, and more negative intangibles, might have kept him out for the first go round.

Fair enough?
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« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2015, 10:20:49 PM »

Let me put it to you this way...if jeters longevity, "clean-ness", intangibles, leadership, good sportsmanship, and general non-stat based "stuff" is going to make him a 1st ballot hof-er ( and barring huge changes, it prolly will).....

Holy smoke, a Yankee fan that actually "gets it" when it comes to Jeter.

Don't get me wrong, he's a HOF'er for sure, but was he ever really "better" than a guy it took a few years to get in like Biggio?

Nope.

And I'd love for you to elaborate on your Pettitte views, I have a feeling they coincide with mine.

To regurgitate a classic HOF clich?, "The only way he's gettin' in is buyin' a ticket."
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« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2015, 10:46:21 PM »

And for an outside looking in, no dog in the hunt view on Pedro..

Absolute first ballot guy, Koufax like dominance over that 6 year period.

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« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2015, 10:52:10 PM »

Let me put it to you this way...if jeters longevity, "clean-ness", intangibles, leadership, good sportsmanship, and general non-stat based "stuff" is going to make him a 1st ballot hof-er ( and barring huge changes, it prolly will)..... I can see clear how pedros lack of longevity, and more negative intangibles, might have kept him out for the first go round.

Fair enough?
I gotcha. I suppose Pedro's work in the media has maybe repaired his reputation a bit. It couldn't have hurt. Jim Rice benefited from similar things as well. He was quite surly during his career and wasn't well liked by media members. That softened over the years and he barely got in before his eligibility ran out. I have to be honest though. I never really knew Pedro was SO hated outside of Boston. I can see why now from your illustrations, but I was unaware. I still think he would've gotten in easy if he went off into the sunset never to be heard from again. He was that good. But we'll never know for sure.

I think Jeter will surely get in 1st ballot. His stats don't exactly jump out at you as an all time great" but he had all of the intangibles. I grew to appreciate the way he played the game. He was clutch at the plate and in the field. He was a winner, plain and simple. And this coming from someone who used to chant, "Nomar's better!" How silly that seems now.

Pettitte? I'm not sure he'll get in. Certainly not right away. I think the PED's certainly hurt his chances.

What do you think of the Yankees going with a lefty heavy lineup to counter all the right handed pitching in the AL East, and seemingly take advantage of the short porch? Will it make a difference or are the hitters just not good enough regardless of what side they hit from? I think their lineup has potential if they all click. But that's asking a lot. Rarely does every question get answered positively. Though it did happen for the Sox in 2013, so it is possible. They have built themselves a real solid bullpen it looks like. And they may need it with the question marks in their rotation.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 11:04:25 PM by faldor » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2015, 05:20:19 AM »

3 Ball trips planned this year

Seattle, Houston and flordia.   All to see the Blue Jays.   Never been to Houston or Florida, looking forward to it

Lets Go Blue Jays!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2015, 06:12:11 AM »


And I'd love for you to elaborate on your Pettitte views, I have a feeling they coincide with mine.

To regurgitate a classic HOF clich?, "The only way he's gettin' in is buyin' a ticket."

I think his chances are slim. They exist..based almost solely on his post-season numbers (which are amongst the best, if not the best, in MLB history). But I just don't think that's enough.

If you balance that post season success (which might have squeeked him in toward the end of his eligibility, maybe) with the PED use and....unless the voters suddenly change their tune...you're left on the outside looking in. The vets might get him in, because he is VERY well liked by other players (and, heck, by the media, too).

His regular season numbers definitely do not warrant, IMHO, election.  He was a slightly above average lefty, with great durability (mostly) in a season, during the regular season.  He didn't compile enough wins to give you pause, his ERA isn't great, his Sabermetric stats aren't noteworthy.  He'll probably make the ballot, and sit there until his eligibility is up. 

I love the guy, but, yeah....I think chances are the only way he's getting in is when he visits a couple times for Mo and Jeter's induction ceremonies in a few years.

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« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2015, 06:23:30 AM »


What do you think of the Yankees going with a lefty heavy lineup to counter all the right handed pitching in the AL East, and seemingly take advantage of the short porch? Will it make a difference or are the hitters just not good enough regardless of what side they hit from? I think their lineup has potential if they all click. But that's asking a lot. Rarely does every question get answered positively. Though it did happen for the Sox in 2013, so it is possible. They have built themselves a real solid bullpen it looks like. And they may need it with the question marks in their rotation.

I think their off season moves are non-sensical, unless the ultimate goal is to dump payroll, rebuild for a couple years, and try to rebuild their farm system from the floor up. Smiley

I think their lineup is unimpressive, unproven, and largely is going to be inneffective.  I expect this to be a cellar season for them, honestly.  From 1-9, you literally have 2 guys who have proven, in recent years, that they can hit: Ellsbury (the forever broken) and Gardner.  Neither of those guys hit for power, either.

The rest of them are .220 to .250 hitters, at best, of late.  I don't think that's enough, no matter the matchups, to put together an effective offense.

I think their defense (esp their infield defense) got better.  I think their pen got better (hard to believe considering the loss of Robinson).  I think their rotation (assuming a couple arms don't fall off...one in particular) is solid, with a couple question marks toward the bottom (because, lets face it, CC is now the #3 pitcher on that staff).  If Nova comes back in June....and looks remotely what he was....they've got a solid run of guys there.  Durability, as per usual, is the biggest question.

I think stockpiling a bunch of young, and mostly "project", flamethrowers this offseason is an interesting concept.  I'm not sure I like it, but it's interesting.

I also think.....they've decided to pretty much rebuild until they can shed the A-rod (FYI: I expect release by May, unless he's actually able to hit), Tex, and CC money on the books.  Basically, the next couple years.  They went young, cheap, and unproven in pretty much all their moves.  They signed (or are in the process of signing) Stephan Drew JUST IN CASE one of their 2b prospects cant' tie their shoes out of Spring Training.

And they seem bent on throwing that young talent into an ineffective lineup, with no protection, and very little proven veteran presence/leadership, and expecting them to succeed.  I think that's a very, very, very tall order (and probably unrealistic).  Which means.....IMHO....they end up burning those guys out.

But, we'll see.  It's ugly, IMHO.
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