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« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2015, 10:33:11 AM »

Some articles pointing out problems with the Wells report and the NFL's poor handling of the whole situation, for anyone who cares.

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2015/05/12/top-10-reasons-why-an-appeal-overturns-tom-bradys-suspension/

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/this-is-how-the-nfl-let-deflate-gate-get-so-out-of-control-and-ridiculous-200459796.html

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/tom-brady-probably-isn-t-innocent-in-deflate-gate--but-wells-report-fails-to-prove-he-s-guilty-223250553.html

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/wells-report-disregards-andersons-best-recollection-on-a-key-piece-of-evidence/
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« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2015, 12:08:04 PM »

Pats have released their response at:

www.wellsreportcontext.com

It's very dense, and I'm only about 1/2 way through it.
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« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2015, 01:46:50 PM »

Pats have released their response at:

www.wellsreportcontext.com

It's very dense, and I'm only about 1/2 way through it.

They are definitely not going down without a fight of some kind.

I read the site in its entirety and my opinion remains unchanged.(I should note that I feel my personal opinion has been the same prior to reading this Patriots reply, I only feel it helps justify it) .

The NFL came to the immediate conclusion that the Patriots were breaking rules and accepted no other possible outcome. People in the NFL offices leaked out incorrect information to ensure the embarrassment of the Patriots. At no time do I feel the NFL cared for a different explanation beyond the Patriots being guilty of something. The Well's investigation wasn't about finding out what happened it was about finding evidence in anyway possible that the Patriots or its players and personnel were participating in a scheme to deflate footballs and took every opportunity to twist testimony, text messages, and ignore testimony to fit that agenda. When they couldn't prove that agenda with concrete evidence, they changed focus to non-compliance by the Patriots and Tom Brady. And attempted to use that supposed non-compliance to strengthen their argument that the Patriots and Brady participated in a scheme to deflate footballs.

In addition, the NFL allowed incorrect information to drive the narrative of the guilt of the Patriots. Knowing the information was false and one of the teams were getting slammed because of this information was of little consequence to the NFL offices. As they never considered another option other than the Patriots are guilty so embarrassment by media I am sure is viewed as part of the punishment. The NFL then proceeded to release the Well's Report at a time when they knew nothing else would be talked about, held back any discipline until the media drove the narrative. Leaked out possible punishment over the weekend to determine the media reaction and then proceeded to give that punishment. All of this at a time when the NFL's reaction is perceived as weak in other supposed controversies.

This entire fiasco is a farce. There was no evidence Brady participated in deflating footballs post an inspection by the league officials. There was no attempt to hide the transfer of footballs by Patriots personnel from the official locker room to the field. There is no evidence these guys ever conversed about deflating footballs post the official inspection. There is no direct evidence linking Brady to any of this.

The NFL, didn't take the Colts accusations seriously until halftime of the game. They didn't have PSI recorded from before the game so we actually have no proof, beyond Walt Anderson's recollections(which are conveniently used when it fits Wells, and conveniently ignored when it doesn't), that the Patriots footballs were even under-inflated beyond what science suggests would be reasonable. So there is actually no credible scientific evidence the Patriots purposely used under inflated footballs during the AFC Championship game itself which is what this whole thing was about in the first place.
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« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2015, 03:19:00 PM »

Well said. Agreed on all counts.

I will say though, their explanation of the term "deflator" sounds a bit flimsy. But who knows. Someone who uses the nickname Dorito dink, could refer to losing weight as deflating.  hihi
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« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2015, 03:56:01 PM »

And Brady's appeal has now officially been filed by the NFLPA.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/14/tom-brady-files-appeal-of-four-game-suspension-via-the-nflpa/?cid=yahoo
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« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2015, 04:14:09 PM »

I think the Patriots are embarrassing themselves....

Have some class... Brady wants to appeal because he wants to play and doesn't want to admit he cheated fine.... but this whole report trying to discredit the entire thing as one big lie ?

Arthur Blank apologized for the Falcons pumping fake noise...took his medicine and moved on.

Kraft who has gotten a pass due to his relationship with Goodell a 100 times over is going to fight a 10 million dollar investigation claiming the guy was talking about himself losing weight?

Are they freaking serious?
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« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2015, 04:16:16 PM »

I feel for the two guys making 500 bux a week...were they going to say no to Tom Brady ?

Now they won't be able to work in the league ever again.

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« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2015, 04:30:30 PM »

I think the Patriots are embarrassing themselves....

Have some class... Brady wants to appeal because he wants to play and doesn't want to admit he cheated fine.... but this whole report trying to discredit the entire thing as one big lie ?

Arthur Blank apologized for the Falcons pumping fake noise...took his medicine and moved on.

Kraft who has gotten a pass due to his relationship with Goodell a 100 times over is going to fight a 10 million dollar investigation claiming the guy was talking about himself losing weight?

Are they freaking serious?

Yeah we're freaking serious. The Falcons got caught red handed. The NFL doesn't even know, with 100% certainty what the PSI of the footballs were prior to the game starting. They didn't write them down. How can they determine if they were messed with, if they don't even know the PSI of the footballs prior to the game? The Wells report relys on referee Walt Anderson's best recollections when its convenient, with PSI of the footballs before the game started, and ignores them when it isn't convenient, with which pressure gauge is used.

This whole thing is bullshit. It started with bullshit, they haven't proved anything and everybody who thought the Patriots were cheaters all the time are following like sheep.

Yeah, I got bias because I'm a Patriots fan but so does most everybody else on one side or the other. Most everybody just assumes the Patriots are lying, ignoring any explanation they give because it doesn't support the conclusion that they are lying and cheated.
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« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2015, 04:30:51 PM »

I think the Patriots are embarrassing themselves....

Have some class... Brady wants to appeal because he wants to play and doesn't want to admit he cheated fine.... but this whole report trying to discredit the entire thing as one big lie ?

Arthur Blank apologized for the Falcons pumping fake noise...took his medicine and moved on.

Kraft who has gotten a pass due to his relationship with Goodell a 100 times over is going to fight a 10 million dollar investigation claiming the guy was talking about himself losing weight?

Are they freaking serious?
You, and many others I'm sure, are putting emphasis on the weakest part of their report. The rest of it contains some very interesting points and information that challenge a report that had many holes. At this point, there's no reason for them to bow down and say sorry. The punishment was overly harsh, so what do they have to lose at this point?
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« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2015, 04:36:18 PM »

I feel for the two guys making 500 bux a week...were they going to say no to Tom Brady ?

Now they won't be able to work in the league ever again.


I doubt they even make that for their part time work. I'm sure they're "being taken care of". Their reputations are taking a hit, but I see that as the NFL's fault, or more fairly, their own. Not Tom Brady's . How you come to that conclusion I'm not sure.

This article agrees that the "deflator" explanation was laughable, but that shouldn't overshadow the rest of the relevant and conflicting information contained in their response.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/the--deflator--was-a-term-for-losing-weight--pats-fire-back-at-wells--report-171744937.html
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2015, 12:07:18 AM »

So Goodell will hear Brady's appeal, which is his right under the CBA.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/14/goodell-to-handle-brady-appeal/

I'm not sure what his thinking is here. Perhaps they feel they can argue the CBA or his independence in front of a Judge, which seems to be where this is going. Are they seeing the polling done on this and feeling the public will see him in a good light for upholding Brady's suspension? I can't imagine anybody believes he can legitimately claim independence. Sports Illustrated legal analyst, who will also be teaching a Deflategate law class in the fall rofl, says with Goodell handling the appeal it could be easier for Brady to claim the process was unjust.

Seems to me there is no way the NFL is going to reduce Brady's suspension regardless of what happens here on out unless a court tells them to.

This is going to go on forever.
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2015, 06:20:58 AM »

So Goodell will hear Brady's appeal, which is his right under the CBA.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/14/goodell-to-handle-brady-appeal/

I'm not sure what his thinking is here. Perhaps they feel they can argue the CBA or his independence in front of a Judge, which seems to be where this is going. Are they seeing the polling done on this and feeling the public will see him in a good light for upholding Brady's suspension? I can't imagine anybody believes he can legitimately claim independence. Sports Illustrated legal analyst, who will also be teaching a Deflategate law class in the fall rofl, says with Goodell handling the appeal it could be easier for Brady to claim the process was unjust.

Seems to me there is no way the NFL is going to reduce Brady's suspension regardless of what happens here on out unless a court tells them to.

This is going to go on forever.

My guess:

They will argue that, since the investigation was independently done, then Goodell, himself, is independent FROM it, and so can best hear both sides present evidence, and rule.

My other guess:

Had the Patriots NOT released that very aggressive, very hostile, response yesterday....that may have gone differently.  They are goading the league....and I suspect thats just going to make things worse for them.  We'll see.....
 
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2015, 09:58:27 AM »

So Goodell will hear Brady's appeal, which is his right under the CBA.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/14/goodell-to-handle-brady-appeal/

I'm not sure what his thinking is here. Perhaps they feel they can argue the CBA or his independence in front of a Judge, which seems to be where this is going. Are they seeing the polling done on this and feeling the public will see him in a good light for upholding Brady's suspension? I can't imagine anybody believes he can legitimately claim independence. Sports Illustrated legal analyst, who will also be teaching a Deflategate law class in the fall rofl, says with Goodell handling the appeal it could be easier for Brady to claim the process was unjust.

Seems to me there is no way the NFL is going to reduce Brady's suspension regardless of what happens here on out unless a court tells them to.

This is going to go on forever.

My guess:

They will argue that, since the investigation was independently done, then Goodell, himself, is independent FROM it, and so can best hear both sides present evidence, and rule.

My other guess:

Had the Patriots NOT released that very aggressive, very hostile, response yesterday....that may have gone differently.  They are goading the league....and I suspect thats just going to make things worse for them.  We'll see.....
 
Yeah, the fact that Goodell had Wells do the investigation and Troy Vincent hand out the penalties, he's made a conscious effort to distance himself from the situation. Brady will most likely have a strong case in court if the suspension is upheld since Goodell is not a judge or lawyer, and can certainly be viewed as being too vested in the matter.

Goodell could play it 2 ways. He could try to save whatever relationship he has with Kraft and cut the suspension to 2 games. Give him 2 games for lack of full cooperation. Or he could stick to his guns and uphold the 4 games. That's the way I see it going. I don't think the Patriots response to the Wells report doesn't help them in this situation. You could say they're forcing the NFL's hand. But the NFL did the same exact thing to them by instituting such a harsh penalty. Kraft, according to his initial statement, was fully willing to accept a "fair" punishment. They didn't get that, so they responded accordingly.

And for people to reference how other teams have handled their discipline.  NONE of those teams lost their QB for 4 games, were fined a million bucks, and lost a 1st and 4th round pick. The punishment does not fit the crime. That's why we're going through this whole back and forth. League sources were leaking false information starting hours after the AFCCG that made the Patriots look bad from the outset. They started this whole charade and laid the seeds for a "needed" investigation. All of these other controversies that other organizations have been involved in have been dealt with behind closed doors. The obvious intention here was to smear the reputation of the Patriots. Mission accomplished. But that is why they've taken such a hard stance along the way.

The fact remains, people have had their minds made up on this subject for months now. Nothing that has come out this week has done anything to sway people. And the appeal and possible court proceedings won't change anything either. Unless some damning evidence or information comes to light one way or the other. I don't see that happening, but people on both sides will spin it as best they can. And around we go.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 10:04:20 AM by faldor » Logged

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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2015, 10:18:52 AM »

And to lighten the mood a little, I read a funny tweet yesterday regarding the Patriots "deflator" response. I can't find it right now, so I can't give credit to whoever deserves it, but I found it humorous. It went something like this.

The Patriots also referred to Aaron Hernandez as "the murderer" because he could kill a plate of nachos.  rofl

Sometimes you have to pause and realize how ridiculous this has all gotten, on BOTH ends. This thing has spiraled out of control. Something that could've been dealt with quietly and a small fine imposed has mutated into what we have today. It's just insane.
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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2015, 10:30:06 AM »

And to lighten the mood a little, I read a funny tweet yesterday regarding the Patriots "deflator" response. I can't find it right now, so I can't give credit to whoever deserves it, but I found it humorous. It went something like this.

The Patriots also referred to Aaron Hernandez as "the murderer" because he could kill a plate of nachos.  rofl

Sometimes you have to pause and realize how ridiculous this has all gotten, on BOTH ends. This thing has spiraled out of control. Something that could've been dealt with quietly and a small fine imposed has mutated into what we have today. It's just insane.

Agree, 100%.

Both with the sort of theater of the absurd that this has become AND the part about something that COULD have been a tiny little thing turning into Football Armegeddon.
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« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2015, 10:44:38 AM »

Yeah, the fact that Goodell had Wells do the investigation and Troy Vincent hand out the penalties, he's made a conscious effort to distance himself from the situation. Brady will most likely have a strong case in court if the suspension is upheld since Goodell is not a judge or lawyer, and can certainly be viewed as being too vested in the matter.

The first part (judge/lawyer) won't matter.  He's granted, under the CBA, the power to act as arbitrator. The judge can't over rule that, since it's collectively bargained.  In fact, Goodell only relinquishes that power at his discretion (or when forced to by the courts)...everything is supposed to go through him.  That LAST bit (too vested) is their foothold.

And THAT's why the NFL set things up the way they did, IMHO.  If a judge is going to rule that way, they are.  But the NFL has done everything in it's power, in this process, to set the chess board up EXACTLY this way, because I'm sure they feel it gives them the most solid legal ground to withstand exactly that challenge (too vested).  Independant investigation, independant penalty assessment....kept him "above the fray", at least as much as they possibly could.

Quote
Goodell could play it 2 ways. He could try to save whatever relationship he has with Kraft and cut the suspension to 2 games. Give him 2 games for lack of full cooperation. Or he could stick to his guns and uphold the 4 games. That's the way I see it going. I don't think the Patriots response to the Wells report doesn't help them in this situation. You could say they're forcing the NFL's hand. But the NFL did the same exact thing to them by instituting such a harsh penalty. Kraft, according to his initial statement, was fully willing to accept a "fair" punishment. They didn't get that, so they responded accordingly.

The difference is: The penalty has to be made public by it's nature.  The report is public because that's the CBA process, once it's complete.

The response does not fit any of that.  It's not their right to do it, especially in public.

They're antagonizing the league by doing that.  The Pats have until the 21st (as an org) to appeal their penalty to Goodell, directly.  The response they have...right there...is the body of what should have been presented DIRECTLY TO HIM.  They chose to end around him, and just try to play it out in the court of public opinion.

Brady filed his appeal yesterday.  Much of the response could have been/should be used as part of his "defense".  Instead, they decided to fight it out in the court of public opinion, too. 

Again, this scorched earth thing for the Pats smacks wildly of the similar tactics taken by Arod.  I'm not going to commesurate the "guilt"...but that process did not make him friends in the MLB front offices, or amongst the other players.  All you're doing is besmirching, and antagonizing, your league.

The OTHER problem with that is, quite frankly, it's horrific strategy.  The Pats/Brady just basically blew their load, in public.  The league now knows pretty much exactly what their defense is going to be...and whoever's presenting that side, in the hearing, now knows EXACTLY which points to assail, and which bits of evidence they need to undermine and call into question.  It's like the defense attorney going out and handing his trial strategy to the press before they even make opening statements.  The prosecutor would LOVE that...because they have extra time to craft their strategy to undermine it.



Quote
And for people to reference how other teams have handled their discipline.  NONE of those teams lost their QB for 4 games, were fined a million bucks, and lost a 1st and 4th round pick. The punishment does not fit the crime. That's why we're going through this whole back and forth. League sources were leaking false information starting hours after the AFCCG that made the Patriots look bad from the outset. They started this whole charade and laid the seeds for a "needed" investigation. All of these other controversies that other organizations have been involved in have been dealt with behind closed doors. The obvious intention here was to smear the reputation of the Patriots. Mission accomplished. But that is why they've taken such a hard stance along the way.

1) I agree the punishment is too harsh.

2) I think it's a chicken/egg argument.  I think the Pats, from the press conference pretty much right after, when there were questions about the balls, right up through the next morning when the story broke (before the league had really leaked ANYTHING) wide, the Pats were very antagonistic.  The league were not angels...but, the Pats also didn't leave them any "out" once they started ranting and demanding apologies.  At that point...what's the league supposed to do?  You've put them in a position where, now, they HAVE to do a complete, long, thorough investigation.  Because you've publicly called them to the mat.  Thrown down the gauntlet. Whipped out your junk to start a pissing match.  The league literally can not back down from that.

Quote
The fact remains, people have had their minds made up on this subject for months now. Nothing that has come out this week has done anything to sway people. And the appeal and possible court proceedings won't change anything either. Unless some damning evidence or information comes to light one way or the other. I don't see that happening, but people on both sides will spin it as best they can. And around we go.

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« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2015, 11:09:03 AM »

Guantlet thrown by NFLPA yesterday: https://www.nflpa.com/news/all-news/notice-of-arbitration-appeal-of-tom-brady

No wonder Goodell is presiding.  hihi

So I guess the NFLPA is going to court even before* the appeal is heard. This is going to be a long drawn out process. I can't help but laugh a little. Brady starting to seem like a pawn in a much bigger fight.
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« Reply #77 on: May 15, 2015, 12:43:33 PM »

Guantlet thrown by NFLPA yesterday: https://www.nflpa.com/news/all-news/notice-of-arbitration-appeal-of-tom-brady

No wonder Goodell is presiding.  hihi

So I guess the NFLPA is going to court even before* the appeal is heard. This is going to be a long drawn out process. I can't help but laugh a little. Brady starting to seem like a pawn in a much bigger fight.

That letter isn't actually a notification they're "going to court".   Not yet.  The threat is certainly implied...that's for sure.

That's their formal declaration of appeal, of the suspension/discipline.  It all has to do with the arbitration, and was in hand BEFORE Goodell identified that he would be hearing the appeal.

So, the NFL knew what the NFLPA was going to do in that circumstance, knew that they were threatening to sue, and Goodell appointed himself anyway.

We'll see how it plays out.  I SUSPECT that most judges will see the NFLPA's assertions about calling Goodell as a witness as specifically purposefull...in that they're looking for a way to disqualify Goodell, rather than there being an actual need to.  But we'll see.

It'll be interesting to see how the court interprets the CBA in this.  The language on delegation can be read a couple different ways, and, despite the NFLPA's assertions, it's not a clear cut and dry correlation to the Rice precedent.  You can read the CBA as giving the commissioner the right to consult with an outside party for disciplinary action.  The office of the commissioner has to approve it, but...that seems like it's what happened here.

They might be trying to hit the NFL with a technicality, and thus try to force Goodell to levy the penalty, more directly, by approval/distribution directly from the Commissioners office, and then try to say THAT makes him too close to the process, and thus disqualify him from sitting as arbitrator. They'll need to get a judge to agree to hear that argument on merit, though.

I think...and this is just MHO, reading the CBA, that that's going to be a hard case to make to a judge.  We saw some of this technical wrangling with Bountygate, and it tended to get disregarded.  The only issues the courts cared about was whether the CBA was, in fact, being violated directly.  We'll see if that's the bent, this time. They seem to imply they think it is being violated, because of where the memo of discipline originated.  I suspect (again, MHO) a judge will think that's a transparent strategic tactic, not a legit violation.
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« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2015, 01:26:39 PM »

I know you Pat fans are mad and think the punishment is too much (it is)... and you want to give the golden boy every benefit of the doubt that he might be innocent . (he's not)

But they got caught... and then they denied it and snubbed their noses at the league. When the NFL comes to people and want answers for the "best interest of the league" and you don't comply. They get mad... so they hammered them.

That's really it all is... All the nonsense with the math or circumstantial evidence... all that... its meaningless...

All they had to say was we are sorry , we didn't realize how much an issue this would be. Pay a small fine and that's it.

Instead they went to the mattress...and now they are paying for it. Brady is a keeper for me in fantasy too.... fucking ay !
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Axl Rose IS Skeletor
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« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2015, 02:01:53 PM »

Goodell has protected Kraft and vice versa for years ...

But some of the other owners have had enough ... he can't protect him anymore.

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Axl Rose IS Skeletor
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