Do Americans Hate Themselves?

[Friedemann]

Read this carefully (if you want), it's just something I'm wondering about ---

If Hollywood movies tell the stories Americans want to hear there seems to be some evidence pointing towards my question. In that respect there's at least three different kinds of movies:

first: a plain and simple American fighting evil and corrupt (although fellow American) police, secret service, military, lawyers, lobbyists and government agencies. Examples: the first two parts of Rambo, most of X Files, I guess many others will come to your mind

second: an American becoming a terrorist and turning on the (apparently) even more evil and corrupt American government. Example: Red Alert (doesn't Tommy Lee Jones play a Vietnam vet?), some of the X Files as well

third (and most disturbingly): this whole genre of movies set in they near future where the Land of the Free has come under a post-apocalyptic totalitarian violent regime. Examples: the original Rollerball, Deathrace, Escape from LA I think it's called, even Barb Wire.

Another hint: lots of "disaster" movies (Independence Day for example) or books like The Stand have these scenes of looting mobs and mass panic and, in general, the collapse of order and the government acting violently, lying, covering up, hiding, dissolving.

So --- my question: if all of that actually portrays the way Americans feel, do they hate themselves? How come they don't seem to trust their great system which they put up themselves and which is still the first and most successful democracy in the world?

[Kujo]

I was preparing a smartass response but I see you are not trying to be an ass so I will make this very simple: All those examples you gave are Fiction. The characters work for the advancement of the story. I'm sure there might be some people that might relate but I dont think any of those examples represent a large part of the populations sentiments. 

[Friedemann]

sure I know it's fiction but since they make movies people obviously want to see I still think it reflects in some way the way they feel --- you know it's a national pasttime to be suspicious of the government: people seem to generally take it as a fact that they're being lied to and being tricked into things, nobody seems to expect that the others are honest with them

think of this guy, the brother of this other guy who helped Tim McVeigh blow up this building, you know, keeping weapons, building bombs --- like it or not, he's an American original because I couldn't think of another environment creating such a phenomenon --- maybe a civil war country with 30 years of guerrilla fighting going, but not a country that has enjoyed democracy for 228 years

[McGann]

It's simply that Hollywodd is basically a Communist nation in and of itself, and despises everything real America stands for.  Sounds simplistic, but it's not...the reason is simple, in that actors generally feel they need a cause in order to leave a legacy, since they don't want to be remembered for pretending for a living!  The easiest causes to support tend to be leftist, since they only require the appearance of caring and no practical solutions, thus the entire Hollywood culture is built around the idea that America is an evil place.
The majority of Americans don't subscribe to this philosophy, but it's simple to understand and provides for a clear-cut villian as well as pretty clear solutions to moivie problems and big special-effects laden battles and neat quotable catchphrases in a world that is generally much more complex.  Bottom line:  these movies are fun to watch, and I love 'em!

As far as celebrities trying to be activists, I'm of the "Shut up and do your job of entertaining me" school but there are exceptions.  Bono is a good one...he's a rock star, but he has spent DECADES studying the spread of AIDS and international monetary issues.  I disagree with some of his conclusions, but I respect his knowledge and educated opinions, unlike, say Richard Hatch.

All of that said, I know that what really sets a democratic republic apart is the right to disagree.  While I feel that Michael Moore is a lying buffoon. I would take a bullet to guarantee his right to present his opinions in a public. forum.

/Mike

[Kujo]

Ok now you made a good example with McVeigh. No matter which party is in office, odds are about half of the country is going to be pissed about it. I think our system is antiquated and needs an overhaul. We've been letting politicians run this for along time and we have the largest debt to show for it, I believe.

I dont know if Ross Perot was the right person for the job but I liked the idea of putting a business man in charge of the country. It might have caused a strain internationally, but ultimately we would start helping ourselves more and hopefully keep our noses out of other countries business.

I really dont like the way things are run now, I know both sides of the main political parties are lying to us, but yet it doesnt make me want to go blow up a building with children going to kindergarten either. I look at it this way, it could be better definitely, but it could also be a hell of alot worse, and as McGann stated I am at least able to say whats on my mind with out........................ wait a second theres some men in suits here to see me, be right back. I hope.

[Friedemann]

you see --- that's what I'm talkin' about. You know they're going to get ya

[SLCPUNK]

It seems like two different topics are being discussed.....

[*Izzy*]

It seems like two different topics are being discussed.....

And I don't understand either

At least I got a laugh out of the title

  Izzy?

[Kujo]

It seems like two different topics are being discussed.....

...And thats different than any other thread on these boards, how?

[GnRNightrain]

Like Kujo, I originally was going to make a smart ass response.  Im not sure the title of the thread fits the substance.  I think a lot of it actually goes all of the way back to the Revolution and the colonies, and americans general fear of government.  This heightened to dramatic proportions during the cold war.  I think it is simply enterntainment.  For every government corruption movie, there are 10 that are terrorist type movies.  Usually it is not the entire american government that is corrupt, but a few bad apples.  But this just goes to show, a lot of people get their sense of America based on movies.

[Friedemann]

I just imagine that people who have got half a continent for a country could afford to relax a little

[Doc Emmett Brown]

sure I know it's fiction but since they make movies people obviously want to see I still think it reflects in some way the way they feel

this is your premise, I take it?  I think you're forgetting a key factor in movies, and that is escapism.  You mention X-Files twice - you'd better realize people watch it for the pure pleasure of escapism.  I know I do.  It's the same reason one reads comics with superheroes, which are also very popular in America.

--- you know it's a national pasttime to be suspicious of the government: people seem to generally take it as a fact that they're being lied to and being tricked into things, nobody seems to expect that the others are honest with them

Reading the UK election thread, it would seem that English people feel the same way about their government.  And the same disillusionment is also apparent in the Canadian election thread!!   I think it's natural  - no governing organization can please everyone, and it's better to err on the side of skepticism than to be a blind patriot. do you agree?

I also somewhat agree with McGann in that Hollywood and its content isnt exactly representative of America.  Just because I pay $8.50 to watch and enjoy Sin City, it doesnt mean I think America is corrupt as that.  It was just fun to watch, purely for escapism.

[Friedemann]

8.50$?! hell!

mmh, now that you mention it, I remember a survey where people in different countries were asked, who do you trust most to defend your case?

of course, politicians and unions were ranking lowest, that's no surprise but in Britain and in the US people also said they don't trust lawyers, attorneys and judges, and that was in fact different from most European countries. In the US, it's clear that nobody wants to change the court system but many people say that it doesn't always do a good job finding justice

again, that seems to be something genuine American: lawyer movies and books! I mean all this John Grisham stuff, and he doesn't do anything but rave about the deficits in the system

still, I'm not trying to put anybody down, I'm just curious

[SLCPUNK]

It seems like two different topics are being discussed.....

...And thats different than any other thread on these boards, how?

Guess you have a point. But this one split right away....

[pilferk]

sure I know it's fiction but since they make movies people obviously want to see I still think it reflects in some way the way they feel --- you know it's a national pasttime to be suspicious of the government: people seem to generally take it as a fact that they're being lied to and being tricked into things, nobody seems to expect that the others are honest with them

think of this guy, the brother of this other guy who helped Tim McVeigh blow up this building, you know, keeping weapons, building bombs --- like it or not, he's an American original because I couldn't think of another environment creating such a phenomenon --- maybe a civil war country with 30 years of guerrilla fighting going, but not a country that has enjoyed democracy for 228 years

1) There are lots of OTHER types of movies made, too.  Love stories, comedies, cartoons, sci fi, horror...most of which don't fit into your categories.

2) Your persective is very Freudian.  However, even Freud once said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".  Americans, as a whole, like escapism....all kinds of escapism.  I think it's tough to pigeonhole any society simply by SOME of the varying types of entertainment we consume.  It would be like saying all French People are brain dead idiots becuase of that song by that kid that went to #1 on the French charts.  Or like saying all Canadians are effeminate because Celine Dion and Brian Adams happen to hail from that country.

3) Timothy McVeigh was a whacko and hardly an original anything. Nor were those that aided him. There have been malcontents througout history (the IRA, for example....Jack the Ripper, for example....Stalin, for example), some who were successful and some who were not.  McVeigh WAS successful.  That's the only thing that distinguishes him from any of the thousands of malcontents who attempt "terrorism" in every other country around the world.

[Friedemann]

well as far as the Canadians are concerned you could put up Bret Hart, half of the WWE and lots of country music singers against that ---

I ain't got no clue if I'm right or wrong, I just thought I'll point out a couple of things that seem to stand out when you look at it from the outside

could be humanity just has a soft spot for watching its own demise --- "one day / they might get to see a face they know"

[loretian]

A lot of other non-Americans seem to get their ideas and viewpoints on American culture based on American cinema.  I can't blame them, it's our number one export.

You have to keep in mind - most, if not all, of mainstream American cinema comes from liberals in Hollywood, and they do not represent mainstream America.  They represent the elitist of the elite of the liberals out there, which is more extreme than even your average liberal American.  The obsession with violence and sex all stems from that, even though much of America is nothing like that.

[nesquick]

Americans are great but sometimes they are dumb (come on guys get a social security for everybody, abolish the death penality). I've never agreed and accepted this global anti-american hostility, for me this is definitely racism (that's one of the reasons I'll never vote for the left). America is a great country. However you should change your president. Hillary would be great for 2008

[SLCPUNK]

A lot of other non-Americans seem to get their ideas and viewpoints on American culture based on American cinema.? I can't blame them, it's our number one export.

You have to keep in mind - most, if not all, of mainstream American cinema comes from liberals in Hollywood, and they do not represent mainstream America.? They represent the elitist of the elite of the liberals out there, which is more extreme than even your average liberal American.? The obsession with violence and sex all stems from that, even though much of America is nothing like that.

Remember when reading something like this.... the source.

This is from a right wing thinker who uses catch words like "elitist" and "liberal" as dirty words (propaganda speak) to describe Hollywood.

America is fascinated with guns (NRA-Right wing), and sex (Bill O'reilly-Right wing talking head) comes to mind quite a bit.

Movies are made to MAKE MONEY. Their story lines are created to draw the bucks in. Nothing more, nothing less.

This flim flam about "the majority of America is not like this" is laughable. Well...no shit! Really? You don't say? Well maybe they don't LIVE LIKE THAT, but they sure as hell like to escape their everyday lives like that (based on the type of movies out there alone). So who is watching these movies then? Only evil elitist liberals? Hardly.

The obession with violence all comes from the evil liberal Hollywood film producers? Ha!!


So why could people think we are are a violent nation?

You have to look no further than your dickhead in the whitehouse to see who used VIOLENCE FIRST.

[loretian]

This flim flam about "the majority of America is not like this" is laughable. Well...no shit! Really? You don't say? Well maybe they don't LIVE LIKE THAT, but they sure as hell like to escape their everyday lives like that (based on the type of movies out there alone). So who is watching these movies then? Only evil elitist liberals? Hardly.

OK, fair enough.  Maybe I overstated my case a little, but my main point is that most other nation's image of us comes from our MOVIES, and our MOVIES are extremely violent, regardless of who made them, or who goes to see them.

You have to look no further than your dickhead in the whitehouse to see who used VIOLENCE FIRST.

That's a separate issue, but the fact of the matter is, this view of America has been around a lot longer than just when Bush did his thing.  It's not like this anti-Americanism is new.

I know from talking to a lot of middle easterners (since my dad's job directly relates to working with people all over the world) that a big part of their view of America comes from our movies.   That's the simple truth of the matter.