Here Today... Gone To Hell!

That video is amazing...utterly realistic and powerful. Kudos to Scott and the entire band for not sugarcoating the meaning of the song. One of the most heartfelt videos I've seen in years. Wow.

Where at?

booker, go to yahoo.com, and under the search bar you should see a link

http://launch.yahoo.com/artist/default.asp?artistID=1103906

You have to get a log-in ID... I recommend it though, they've got lots of videos.  : ok:

Ahh.. ;D  Thanks.  Its cool that theyre right there on Yahoo, since it has to be one of the most seen sites around.

no problemo

Thanks for the link.

Is that Duff dragging Scott into the alley and then hugging him?  Matt & Dave look like they're having a blast while Scott is falling apart in the bathroom.  A few precious shots of Slash.

The band looks great.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it was Duff... mine was kinda choppy on the first watch.  I need to use a different computer.  Anyways, I really liked the video.  It was cool that they did tell the story of the song through the video instead of just having some girl hunting through a cave to find the band performing (not that I disliked the Slither video, this was just more entertaining).   : ok:

Yeah, that's Duff.  Very poignant moment, seeing as Duff really busted his ass to help Scott out when the band was forming.  Gotta love Matt pulling the threesome action.

I think the video is amazing and I hope to God it catches on because I get that feeling like I had during November Rain or one of those type videos where they tell a story and you can really feel like you see it happening. Fantastic job and it was worth the wait.

Wow!!! So simple yet I think it'll really hit home for a lot of people. These are my favorite kinda videos. the ones that portray a real life event.

I wish they showed more Slash during the solo and he should be in a cooler setting maybe we'll have to wait til You Got No Right for the 1min solo on a river, mountain or desert!

Scott hair rocks! much better than Slither!

I didn't get the November Rain video until later on....I just thought slash wallking out of the church, smoking that cig, wind playing his hair and playing that most amazing solo then climbing  on top of the piano was the coolest thing I've ever seen!

I just watched two other videos on there (Modest Mouse & Franz Ferdinand), and FTP definitely stands out.  No cows or drawing the band's members as cartoons.  With that said, I like all three songs though.  I also hope the video catches on - it has a 'rock' feel to it.  And Scott brings in the punk vibe with his red hair and Ramones t-shirt. 


Anywhere is fine by me.   :D  If they cant find a suitable mountain, I'll offer my apartment as a backdrop   ;D

I just watched it again and that part where Duff comes to Scott's aid is amazing!

so scary and realistic!


man I usually don't pay attention to whats going on in a video but this one send chills down my spine!

i fucking hate launch those bastards  >:(

i used to love them, had my own radio station watched all my videos and such.

then all of a sudden, it just stopped working for me, cant watch videos cant watch listen to my radio station.

now im trying to watch FTP, but no i need netscape 7.1. Oh my god what do you know i AM using 7.1. I try internet explorer "we are experiencing technical difficulties" yeah just like usual.

fuck launch!

sorry i hate them with a passion, its like they broke up with me or something. we had a divorce! :hihi:

WOW!!!!
thats one of the best videos ive seen in a longass time.
Scott really pured himself into this one, the video highlights the true emotions behind the song.....reallly didnt like the song much until I saw the video.
powerful stuff!!
GO VR

is it Scott's real wife ? i like her haircut.
anyway, good video. nuthin special, but good video.

Great video, this will hopefully be a hit  : ok: :beer:

i hate all of you that have seen the video while i sit here unable to.

and i especially hate launch right now.  :rant:

ahhhhhhhhh this is driving me nuts trying to get it to work.

fuck the fucking fuckers.  >:(

I thought it was fine.  Those ideas you have for Slash's are all kinda cheesy if you ask me. Just my 2 cents.

Wow, intense video.  Those scenes showing Scott dope sick are out of control.

I just had the same reaction.   This is blows Slither's video out of the water. : ok:

i like the "effect" on the personal videos of scott and his *wife* ... i think it's cool ... amateur looking ... really gewd.

Wow, great video! I really think this could be their big break in Europe. It fits perfectly into the MTV playlist. And its good that they didn't do a cheesy NR like solo scene with Slash. That would've been really corny.....

And Duff looks better then ever. He really has this look on his face as if he has seen it all, done it all and knows it all........He's definitely my fave VR member.............

A really cool video... :)

Awesome to see Slash playing the Guitar... Its just blows me away.... :beer:

excellent video! does anyone know who directed it? it made like the song imediattly. i always thought YGNR was better, but after this i changed my mind, the song rocks and the video is just amazing. i could actually see where scott is coming from to wrtite the song, the video gave a real vibe to the song that i haven't felt yet.
i think this video will catch on and bring lots of new fans, this is just pure rock n roll, this video is so vintage it hurts :D

Kevin Kerslake was said to be directing it...the same guy who did the Slither video.  Much better effort this time IMO.

Just watched the vid, can't decide if it's disturbing or powerful.  Somewhere in between for sure.

The dope sick shots are Sid and Nancy-esque..

That video was killer, love the home video effects, duff to the rescue the cool solo, the story of scott's life :beer:

Wow, wow, and WOW. I've been listening to the song on the radio, and when I saw the link for the video I wanted to watch it immediately. That was an amazing video. It's scary real life in a way. But it definately does the song justice, and then some.

Ok, help somebody please? When I click on the link above it takes me to the VR falling to pieces video link, I click on that and the first thing I see it's a 30 second drug free america commercial, then a video by Keaton Simmons???? ???

What the hell am i doing wrong here?

Yeah, that was a cool video.  Very direct.

Chinasky, try this link

http://search.launch.yahoo.com/search/lsearch/video?p=velvet+revolver

Really, this is bizarre! now I got to see 3 doors down, green day, fucking papa croach!!! but no VR. Am I the only one experiencing this????

U can definately see me and my friends in the video

Nothing...I click on the link, it takes me to the launch search site,  " 3 out of 3 matches VR" i click on Falling to pieces and the launch page video pops up. Before buffering, says " openning" stops and a drug free commercial appears, or the  " anacaconda" movie trailer. Then, paddle of mud vid, blink 182...but no signs of VR.

I don't know what's going on

I'm so excited that I can be seen for like 2 seconds.

strange...don't know what to tell you...

Actually, Rik has made this download of the video available...right click and save as.

http://www.nfornaudio.com/video/VR/VR_Fall_To_Pieces.wmv

 :rant: :rant:

This has happened to me too before... the video you click on just won't seem to play for some reason.  Try logging in again.. or download the one that was posted.  It's not an uncommon problem, so don't feel bad.  :peace:

This video rocks!!! Way to go VR  :beer:

try this

http://www.launch.com/
it should be on the page

Find out where in the song you can be seen and post it (like the time or something).   : ok:

between 2:10 and 2:14

Wow! That vid is amazing! But i swear somewhere else I heard that Scott W. was suppose to fall into a black hole for the video??? O well, the vid is still great anyway! Keep it up VR : ok:

 :rant: i wanna make stills and it doesn't work! :rant:
what's wrong with my computer? :'(



but it's a cool video... is that Scott's real wife? damn the man has taste :hihi:  does anyone know if it's his real wife? i suppose so since it's really Susan (duff's wife) who's in the video... and is Perla in there too somewhere? :-\

All i can say is laugh out loud! :hihi:

It's a pretty good video, it compliments the song well - though if Scott and Duff hug any more i will be asking questions.....

I think the blonde chick with Matt is his girl from Oklahoma, "Ace".  She was in studio with Matt a while back on CF Radio, Matt said they'd just left the video shoot where Ace was making out with some chick in a scene..

During the shoot the band was really laughing it up over that scene, although the one I saw was longer than whats left in the video.

Finally!! : ok:

Good video. A big happy family... Like somebody already pointed out, this is a very " guns" alike video. kinda remind me when in Don't Cry or November Rain, there's footage of whole band ( as a band)  hunging out and having a couple of drinks. But this wasn't GNR, that's why I felt a bit shocked.  With Slither, being a performance video, I didn't feel that way, but watching this one I felt a bit nostalgic of good old days. Despite VR being " around" for a year already, this is the first time I went "wow, where is Axl Rose"??

The whole band looks great despite Scott's lack of acting skills ( Axl was no better...)

This video should help sales in Europe. It will get more exposure than Slither.

By the way, thank you guys for helping me out.

I'm loving the screen shots

What screen shots??


LOL... at http://launch.yahoo.com they have a picture of VR with the great caption: "Watch Scott Weiland fall apart."

velvet-revolver.com has screen shots up. I'm in like 5 of them.

The midgets are also a nice touch.

great video. its dirty. Its rock n roll

the video was amazing, definitely gives a new appreciation to the song...but the lesbian chic moment was lame beyond belief and completely cliche. yes matt, no one doubts your sexual prowess. i'm sure lots of girls will make out in front of you. that might have been impressive 15 years ago. now its kinda sad.
otherwise, great great video.

I thought it was the best bit in the video, infact i think the whole video should be based around lesbians - you go girls  :hihi:

No, I also think it's sad to use lesbians kissing in your vid. Every club you go to nowadays has girls kissing. It's boring, and makes a rather "we-want-to-look-cool-too-so-we-put-in-a-lesbian-kissing-scene-but-actually-we-are-too-late-cause-the-trend-is-already-over" statement...........

It would've been much more interesting if Matt finally came out of the closet and kissed a guy in the vid.......  ;D

Very cool video! 2 thumbs up! No doubt it'll goin' straight to #1
You can put it in the same category as many of the old GN'R.

    Velvet Revolver Rock!  :beer:

ding ding ding. its totally played out. maybe if you are a 15 year old boy you are tickled by two girls kissing, but if this band wants real credibility, they need to appeal to more than the horny teenager male fanbase.  ::)
take this tip guys: midgets and girls kissing are all very OVER concepts in rock videos.

You think its possible that they werent out to tickle anybody?  That scene is such a minute detail in the video, that its silly to complain about.  Its like saying "OMG parties in videos are so played out"...Well, so what?  Theyre minor details in a video thats about something very diffrent...Something credible, since you brought it up.

The kiss wasnt a concept in the video, it was a detail, and one that served a purpose.  Theyre obviously contrasting the bands partying to Scotts suffering...so what are they going to do in Matts scene?  Have a clown or magician making balloon puppets?  Theyre probably going to reflect Matts real-life partying, which most likely includes socializing with girls, and yes, watching them kiss.  And yes, theres the asthetic factor of two girls kissing that doesnt hurt.  But like I said, its a minor detail, and it has a point.

However, out of curiosity, can you name a few of the exhaustive list of videos featuring lesbian kissing?  I can think of like 3 or 4 tops...

There is nothing wrong with girls kissing - don't be homophobic  ;)

 :hihi: someone here wants to see more girls making out :P? :hihi:

are you kidding? thinking it is tacky and played out is hardly homophobic.

younggunner- yes, it's a detail, but its a lame detail. these guys are too old to be behaving like 20 year olds. there are plenty of ways to show the guys partying and having fun without that detail. they had achieved it fine up until that point.

i'm just sick of women kissing for the pleasure and amusement of men. its a shitty representation (sometimes women will kiss for, GASP!!! their own pleasure) and i don't appreciate one of my favorite bands perpetuating it. i would be equally critical if another band did it, but i think most music today sucks balls. i misspoke when i said that girls kissing is a played out concept in music videos-- correction: it is an exhausted concept in pop culture. i don't know how you are going to argue with me on this point.

furthermore, people talk a lot about Duff "trying too hard", what with all the "were do dangerous" talk (something that never bothered me all that much). what about Matt? first its with the "banging 21 year olds" or whatever similar comment he made and now with the sexy lesbians.? ::) again, lame.

Maybe Matt is trying to be "dangerous" because of Duff's comments? Somebody's gotta live up to the "reputation" of the band and the rest of them are all married.  :hihi:



/jarmo

Bad girl has a valid point. I sure don't have anything against two girls kissing, but that scene makes no sense. It seems like they had to fit Matt in the video as duff, slash and Scott have their little parts throughout. So, what could we suse to make Matt stand out for a couple of seconds? Hmm...bring two girls and make believe he'll have an orgy with them. I'm not saying it's not realistic ( Sure Matt still enjoys his single life) but I find it weird seeing a 44 year old guy representing the early 20's year old Rock Star clich?.

but I find it weird seeing a 44 year old guy representing the early 20's year old Rock Star clich?.
 : ok:

 ??? ??? ???


So I suppose you would suggest that they start wearing white button-up shirts and neckties...?? In case you forgot, they are a rock band, and I never thought it was important for rock musicians to start "acting their age".? More importantly, however, I dont think kissing women and watching women kiss is a "20 year-old" thing to do when your a single rock star.? Matt Sorum isnt the average 44 year-old.


Im sure, but self-aware, disingenuous censorship is even lamer.  You think theyre thinking, "I dont know guys, even though is is how Matt parties, its an over concept in pop-culture and is kind of demeaning and offensive to women - you think we should maybe cut it out?"  :no:?


If you want to get that into the whole thing, Matt was kissing the girls as well.? So it wasnt exactly a showing-off thing, where hes making the girls do it for a rowdy crowd of guys or simply ogoling them - hes involved with them himself...Its an implied threesome.? So that would indicate that the girls are doing it for their own pleasure.? Its a detail that exemplifies rock and roll decadence, Matts single life, and the contrast between his fun and Scotts pain.? However, again, its such an ultimately trivial detail that its silly to look that far into it.? Were you this displeased at the strippers in "Slither".? After all, strippers in rock videos is such an over concept.? Girls dancing for men is completely demeaning by your logic, right?? Yet your favorite bands (Guns to VR, and Im sure any other band you can name) have perpetuated this cliche...And Im sure they actually go to strip clubs in real life? :o? And watch girls kiss? :o? And if you go to a strip club, youll see guys 18 to 80.? Wanting to see strippers and girls make out and all of that shit is natural for all men, especially those who are single, in a rock band, and in Matts case in the video, participating in the activity.? The video, which was meant to take place in the Starwood (a place where Im sure such detestable activities actually occurred) obviously had a rock and roll decadence theme...These are the details used to illustrate it.


Sorums statement about banging young women and multiple partner encounters are more accurate then Duffs "dangerous" comments.

LoL, how did i get into this? I think you meant Booker...anyways now that im here I might as well chime in...
 I agree with you Badgirl, they shouldnt have shown 2 girls kissing, the only type of kissing I advocate is a kiss that involves BAdgirl and Younggunner.  :)

sorry Gunner, my bad.  :-*

Booker- dude, i hope your last post made sense to you because you lost me at "so..."

Speaking of lame... : ok:

Well thats a good way to concede youve lost an argument...Sorry you couldnt keep up.? :(

Let Matt be happy, and let him have those 3 seconds of fun in the video, since the full shot couldn't be used. The actual take is much longer and much racier

Man... she backed out of the argument.... but fuck... she called you younggunner.... OUCH!  :nervous:

They are a rock and roll band indeed, but this video ( on thier own words) is like a big faimily reunion...I don't think that scene makes any sense to the theme of the video. That's why it makes it so cliche. Like I said earlier, it even seems like theyve tried to fit Matt in as Duff, Scott and Slahs had their little parts.



It doesn't have to do all with censorship. I'm a guy and I love threesomes ( shit, I wish I was in one right now)? but this band, rearldless been a rock band, should know their boundaries. People ain't stupid, this band can't sell the rock and roll image when they all have families & kids ( except Matt) and cleaned up. What makes them now so dangerous? Why have a scene with two girls now? That prob made sense during the illusions time, but it doesn't now. See, I would enjoy this band much more if they let music do the talking...we first had Scott ranting about the press ( remainds of someone 14 years ago) then we have Duff saying " we are gonna be so dangerous..." and now something like this in a video.. this is crap!!! I don't buy it. It does make them ridiculous!



Even you are admitting Duff comments were/have been silly. On the other hand, why does Matt keep talking so much about the banging young women? In every chance he gets; tv appereance/ interview, he always makes a comment.? I recalled about two or three months ago he said something like this months ago" haha, I still get laid with 18 year old girls when I tell them I once was the drummer of GNR" what kinda shit is that?? I don't know who is he trying to impress by saying that, but I don't see any other veteran rock band using the same rock cliches as a part of their marketing strategy.

I've explained my point of view. twice. i feel no need to stretch this thread to god only knows how many pages restating things i have already said. this is my OPINION. you don't have to agree.

Okay, but first and foremost its a party at the 70s-style Starwood...Its not literally a family reunion.


Sure it does...Its the guys having fun and drinking at a Starwood party.  The guys are all with their chicks - 4 of them happened to be married.  Matt isnt, and thats quite clear.  And like Ive said three times - You dont see that the scene is meant as a contrast between the bands good time and Scotts pain?  Its obvious thats the purpose.


Well, yeah...its Velvet Revolver, not everybody but Matt.   


Sure it does.  Obviously its something the band and/or director wanted...so to reconsider it in fear of the criticisms of a few would be self-censorship.


 ???


Well now youre on a different topic...

We were talking about Matt, and you correctly noted doesnt have a family and kids.


Because its more than likely something that actually occurs in Matts life...

And its nothing new as you know.  Guns did it (in a much more obvious and gratuitous manner) in "SIDHY".


So if Matts actually with multiple young women, it doesnt make sense?


Yeah...that doesnt have much to do with this particular complaint.

Oh shut your stupid cakehole.  Boring old bag.

um, do you know anything of which you speak? i am 25, first of all. and simply because i know a little more about negative representations and stereotypes hardly makes me "boring". sorry for trying to inject a little intelligence into this thread... i see some of you clearly aren't up to the task.

Booker should be honered

I'm sure the two ladies getting paid shit loads of money don't mind, they were not forced into it  : ok:

Feminists today......  ;)

Having a bad day (again)?

 ::)



/jarmo

Sorry to inform you that 95% of straight men are "tickled by" two girls kissing.? In fact I'd rather watch 2 girls kissing than porn.

To those who think 2 girls kissing is "lesbianism"......straight girls "hook-up" now and then.

I've observed it first hand many times in normal party or bar settings.? And it's no longer only for the enjoyment of men.? Some "straight" girls enjoy kissing other girls.

Later in this thread, badgirl, you speak of "negative representations" and "stereotypes".? What's the negative represention?? If a girl wants to kiss another girl, it's a negative representation??? Two girls together is no longer negative.? If it's so negative then why do women, even those who would not think of being with another woman, enjoy watching porn with 2 women together??

I think that number might be a little low K-Rock.   :hihi:

I know of exactly zero men that don't like watching women kiss each other (my guess is that there are some gay guys out there that don't but I don't know any personally).  Hell, I'm 33 and happily married and I can watch women kiss each other all day (wish I could get my wife to do it :) )

The video is great, even if the femenist movement has a problem with it.

-TyRod-

look, i really don't want to argue about this. however, since you asked me a question i will do my best to answer: women making out in the framework of rock videos (which have a long history of being completely mysogonistic) is not done because the girls like it. Velvet Revolver is made up of men, the video was directed and (mostly likely conceptualized) by men, and it is trying to appeal to men with that provocative little clip (what, you think girls are going to watch that and get turned on?). so yes, the girls were not forced to do anything but that is not the point. female sexuality has a long history of being depicted as a male entity- meaning that women hook up for men, not for themselves. Pornography is very guilty of this but it trickles down into many other avenues of pop culture or anywhere else where sexuality is displayed prominently (but largely in pop cuture because we all know that sex works terrificly as a marketing device). SO...since women's sexuality is rarely depicted as something FOR us, about OUR pleasure and is instead depicted as something we do "for you guys", that is a bad thing. Those girls were not making out with each other away from the camera or alone, but in front of Matt, doing it to tittilate him and to titillate the viewers.
Look, this is all theoretical but most of you don't even realize the way women's sexuality is represented because you (and many women too) are so used to it. But its not the best thing, and i don't like to see it perpetuated by a group that i like.
Do i still like Velvet Revolver? yes. Am i still going to buy their albums? obviously. But this is an observation i am making about the video, supported by lots of study i have done on this very topic (as well as being a somewhat astute and aware female living in this world).
take it for what its worth.

man, the old american " 2 girls kissing"
i dont get it.
i mean, who's gonna take care of me if the 2 girls start kissing ....

and badgirl is right. when i saw that scene i was like " .... how original ......".
i personnaly don't dig lesbians. i am a lesbian.

anyway.
i love scott's wife haircut, but i hate her clothes, man, that puffy shirt ( jerry ?? lol ) ....

are you a lesbian? because if you are, i am curious if you are at all tired of the one-dimensional representiations of women's sexuality, specifically, bi-sexuality or lesbianism.
Scott's wife is beautiful. they both have a great unique sense of style.

i mean, i'm a guy so i wasnt THAT serious abouyt the lesbian thing ... :)
i just wanna say that people take sex WAAYYY too seriously. i mean, it's supposed to fun .... deep throat's fun ?_?
about scott's wife, she is kinda hot, but i really love a hairstyle and look. she has a weird face but very attractive anyway.

That comment might ignite a fury of posts that would analyze and justify the dimensions of Ms Sour Girls face

I hope so, be sure to vote for them on mtv2 link pinned to the board..

Video is wesom, doesn't that look like duff's old bass with the pretty tied up sticker..?

You mustve had a hard time with Guns... :-\

By the way, VH1 has been running a lot of promos about premiering "Fall To Pieces" tomorrow at 9 PM.  Its almost being treated like an event, which I find pretty cool.  I cant recall them doing this for any recent videos - does anybody else? 

That's your perception, not mine. To me it's just " hey, what do we do with Matt"? " let's just have a little scene with a couple of girls so we can have the whole Rock and Roll image going"


Yeah Book, but that happened 10 years ago. It made more sense doing it then...also with SCOM 17 years ago.


I'm sure it does to him in real life. But not in this video. This video is not about each band member's life...otherwise we would have seen Duff showing everybody he has mastered the secrets of Kung Fu!!!? :P


It does if the band wants some credibility. I'm not saying they don't have it, but things like the issues here mentioned make me go " Man, this made sense 10 years ago, not now"

^^^ Reilly, doesn't it almost seem like, when they were sitting around the conference table conceptualizing this video, they had a checklist: rock n roll? check. drugs? check. sex?..... shit! no sex, okay Matt, you have to whore it up a bit to complete the holy rock n roll trinity.
 :hihi:

p.s. i don't really remember Guns being exploitative of women in their videos... if anything, i thougt it was the opposite? (remember, Its So Easy never was released)
am i missing something? sweet child, paradise city, jungle (which, aside from the shot of the chick in the beginning..), Patience (women in and out of Slash's bed was all), YCBM, obviously the 3 main videos from UYI were all about love and loss. furthermore, i specifically remember Axl saying that, in casting Stephanie, he wanted to make sure this wasn't a "tits and ass" video. garden and garden of eden, no? Live and Let Die... i would say they were shockingly un-exploitative.  :-\
 

I was alluding to their lyrical content (you going to defend that?)...but since you brought up videos, youre forgetting...

"The Garden" (Tons of strippers, girl-on-girl stuff)
"Since I Dont Have You" (Like I said, thats truly gratuitous lesbian action)

And why would you simply say "Women in and out of Slashs bed is all"?  You could just as easily say "Matt making out with two girls is all" about "FTP".  And saying "ISE" wasnt released is a cop-out because they still made it.  They still, as you say, demeaned women 50 times worse than in "Fall To Pieces".


Yeah..or we would see Duff dealing with Scott and his heroi...oh wait.  :-\  It doesnt have to be about Matt Sorums life to feature elements of his life...I mean, this is getting silly.  Im puzzled to see fans of bands like GNR and VR actually take such issue with something as trivial as two girls kissing. 

i don't have any problems with two girls kissing. what i have problems with are
1. women kissing for the tittilation and entertainment of men
2. women kissing being overused as a concept in popular culture (especially now- once Britney Spears does something, i would pretty much say "its over".)

I suppose another issue i have with it, and yes, i do understand the contrast they were trying to create, is that it is a heavy, serious video. i know that they wanted to show the band in a lighter mode (much like they did in the Don't Cry video), but i thought the girls kissing was too much, almost disrespectful to the rest of the video (which i felt was amazing and powerful). It was also distracting. I was really into the video and that scene takes me out of it every time (and, truth be told, it is just another example of Matt's overcompensation). what i think? i think Matt hates being the only single guy in the band. Its cool when you are in your 20s, but in your 40s, most men realize how trivial one-nighters are and they long for something more. i think that's why Matt talks so much about getting laid by 21 year olds. thou dost protest too much.

just a little armchair.

Just saw the video premiere on MuchOnDemand, and I was really impressed.  I liked the video for Slither, not so much as a concept, but because it showed the band could do a powerful performance, showcased Scott's charisma and Iggy Pop-ish stage movements, and made the song rock even harder.  But just as a lot of people have said, it did remind me a lot of the Don't Cry/November Rain -type GN'R videos, when it showed the band partying and having issues.  It was pretty ballsy, actually to deal with heroin addiction in a mainstream music video.  I knew as soon as I saw it that this was a different animal than any other video in this corporate age.  Velvet Revolver didn't convince me earlier that they're gonna bring danger back to rock 'n' roll - come on, they're all like 40.  But this video at least showed that they were willing to take chances and provide a different concept than other bands.  Like Amanda said on MOD, it presents the "seedy underbelly" of rock culture, and I can't remember the last time I saw that in a music video.  Good job, Velvets.  : ok:

And now, because this thread has also become somewhat of a debate on lesbianism in videos, I feel obligated to contribute my own two cents to the situation...


Well, TyRod, I might be your first exception.  It's not that I don't like I don't like watching girls kiss each other - it's titilating enough - but I really don't understand this whole fascination that other guys have with lesbianism.  Why?  Because it's two girls kissing EACH OTHER.  Call me selfish, but I would much rather be kissing a girl myself.  If I wanted to just watch, I would have stayed home and watched porn on my computer.  The whole point about lesbians is that THEY DON'T LIKE MEN.  And for me personally, I've always had a big complex about how women seem to hate men or be disinterested in them, when you compare how most men feel about women.  I mean, this one time I was at a party and these two girls said, "hey, let's put on a show for Matt," and started making out.  But I just got up and left.  The whole thing just seemed stupid and pointless to me.  When you're not picking up any girls that night, the last thing you want to see is two of them making out with each other instead of with you.  I mean, the thought that straight girls would rather make out with each other than with you, a guy, is a little unflattering, don't you think?  :hihi:

See, I don't know if women kiss to impress guys or because they like it themselves - probably a combo of both.  But I think I really do have to side with badgirl in this situation.  The women kissing thing in popular culture is totally played out - I would almost rather see two guys kissing at this point, just because it would be different.  And if women are making out only for the titilation of men - fuck that.  I don't think they are, though.  To me, the instance of "straight" women kissing each other just reminds me that women dislike men so much they're willing to go for each other instead.  :P

That said, I thought the thing in the video was not a big deal - just showed the overall carnival atmosphere that the band profuses to practice.  Me personally, I just rolled my eyes at the lesbian kiss.  Way to go, Matt - you're watching two girls kiss.  You don't have to be a rock star to do that, you just need to own a computer.  A minor detail, rather insignificant.  It's not wrong, just boring.  Unlike the video as a whole, which was riveting.

Rock on, VR.

I just caught the video on MuchOnDemand... it was their "Premiere" this week.  The fan they spoke with after said they thought it was awesome (and they'll probably like the band more).

This video looks a hell of a lot better when I'm not watching a 300k version on Launch.  I can see this catching on.   : ok:

He was kissing the girls himself...It was a threesome, which kind of negates most of the points you make.  He wasnt just sitting there watching, he was participating in a group encounter.

And I even feel more puzzled that you don't get my point!!!!

For me it's not the kissing thing that annoys me. I've already explained that. It's the Rock and Roll image they are trying to sell with that scene. It's way out their league now....

Anyway, I like the video. That's the bottom line....

Booker, those GN'R videos were made 10-15 years ago. Things have changed in that time wouldn't you say?

Do you think if somebody made an all animated video today people would say "Wow, that's really groundbreaking!"? No, things have changed a bit since the 1980s.

Here's something else for you Booker, since I know you love my posts asking questions. Does anybody find it a bit funny that VR are now filming the kind of videos Axl wanted GN'R to make? The kinds that tells a story? At least they didn't make Slash "act" like he did in the GN'R videos.  ;)



/jarmo

Theres nothing wrong with Matt and the boys having some fun with lesbians, while Scotts dying in the next room of heroin overdose. So maybe they treat lesbians badly in this video... they make great music.? But i think someone needs to drive Duff over to Axl's mansion so he can straighten him out. Right now Axl is probably laying sideways a chair strung out on coffee or something.

Do u see n e "rock stars" living that lifestyle today? No. And I wouldnt class 3 ppl as a orgy... :nervous:

Matt, obviously i agree with you, however, i wanted to give you a female perspective regarding the "hating men" thing and how it relates to lesbianism/bisexuality. this, unfortunately, is another commmon misconception (and it is also a bit of a mysoginistic one-- don't worry i don't think you are a mysoginist). why can't women kiss because they like it themselves? why does it have to be that its because they "hate men"? why do men have to be involved at all? some girls just like girls. its that simple. men have nothing to do with this preference or this decision.
BUT...i will tell you that most "bi" girls (which usually ends up being straight girls who have had too much to drink) will make out for male attention. So, yes, they enjoy it, but only in so far as it excites you and turns you on and gives them the attention they want. put it this way- most of these girls would not be kissing if they were drinking alone at one of their houses. i can't speak for everyone, obviously, but from my experience (including a good friend who wanted to make out with me because she was drunk and wanted to appeal to a group of guys who were watching us), the kind of women you see in a rock n roll context (straight women- never lesbians) are doing it for the guys.

And by the way- guys kissing? that is getting played out too. Once Christina Aguilera does something, you can pretty much consider it over.  :hihi:

maybe they should change song title and call ftp Loving the Lesbians?

I'll back you up badgirl.? It's true.? I wasn't offended by the video, just because it's just another image in a long line of male rock video fantasies.? But yes, the trend in the past few years of women publicly making out in bars and on television is expressly for the titillation of men and the validation women get from that.? Most real life lesbian couples don't make spectacles of themselves, just like most hetero couples don't.? ?

Like I say, I wasn't offended, although it did bolster my opinion that Matt Sorum is kind of a pig.? ?


Well, female fans are used to putting up with this stuff.  I've overlooked a lot of sexist videos, comments by bands, over the years, because I was a fan of the music.  That shouldn't bar us from commenting when we feel like it.  Whether Sorum's real life is like that (I'm guessing it is), is not the point.  He's your typical middle-aged dude, getting laid by young girls because of his associations with more famous rock stars.  I heard an account of a girl who was at this video shoot saying that Sorum was directing "his girl" on how to present herself in the video, it's just so patronizing, for lack of a better word, he's a weiner.

Although, I will say that Scott and Duff's scenes however unintentional, were highly homoerotic, and me likey!

you might be surprised to know that there are actually girls out there who do like to see two girls kiss and who do get turned on by it... it's not just men!

and, another shocker, some women actually do hook up because they like it, and not because there happens to be a man around!

please don't generalise this... there are plenty of women out there who like other women and who like to watch other women, without any men being invloved... and before you start ranting, read on, i quoted something else you said about this...



1. again... what makes you so convinced all girls who kiss do it only for men??
2. i don't think you can compare Brintey Spears to VR but anyways... it has been around for over 2000 years and it will stay too; girls kiss! And not just for men! Girls kiss, girls make out, and they like it... i don't think you can call it a "trend" to be gay (or bi). now as far as the girl on girl action in the pop industry goes... yeah they show two girls kissing... maybe the very first time they did that it was special but now it's not special anymore... does that make it "over"? "over" as in "not cool anymore" maybe... but then again, if the only way to be cool and to get attention is by showing two people of the same sex kissing i think you have a serious problem... now for dear Britney it might do the trick but VR doesn't need to get attention that way.
so maybe if that's what they were after (witch they aren't!!!!!) you could say that it's stupid and "over" but that wasn't what the video was about!
now if you mean "over" as in "it doesn"t happen anymore" you're way off... it happens all the time, you don't have to be a rockstar to see two girls kissing, you just go to a bar, a party, and you'll see the same. that's what the video is about... a party for the band (without scott.. contrast.. blabla, you know ;)) and how are they gonna show it's a party? well what do you have at a party? music, you can see slash with his guitar. booze, you got that too. chicks, you got that too... it's really not a big deal! it happens all the time, it's nothing shocking and you shouldn't make such a fuzz about it! slash has his special "thing", so does scott, so does duff... matt and dave are just having fun with the girls and that's it... no doubt in my mind that's what happens at their "real" parties too... so lighten up please, it was a few seconds with the sole purpose of showing a bandmember having a good time at a party while his friend is almost dying!



i don't know what "bi" girls you know but what you describe there isn't exactly a real bisexual girl... it's a pathetic attempt by a straight chick to get attention and that's lame... so bitch on that all you want, i agree with you there... but just don't say that ALL bi girls are just drunk or looking for attention because that's only a minority of (mostly stupid teenage) girls, who make it much harder for the REAL bi or gay girls to come out



that's just lame... it's not a video to show how "rock n' roll" they are (what they don't even have to show, i think their biographies say enough!) it's a damn party, would you people just get over it?!! ::)



good! it's about a party, a party where things that happen at "normal" parties also happen... like drinking... and girls kissing...

oh and btw; it's not Kung Fu, it's karate and kick boxing ;) :P



are you sorry that they have a family and are clean? you're almost making it sound that way... mick jagger says he'd now rather read a good book than trash a hotel room, let's burn mick jagger! ::)
yes they're older and less dangerous, so what? like i said, check out their biographies!! those guys had more partying and fighting and rock 'n roll in less than a decade than "normal" people would get in a whole lifetime, and it nearly cost them their lives... in this specific video you see how Scott nearly dies, while he is the one member in the band who still uses drugs and gets into fights and all that crap... they show how drugs and "rock 'n roll lifestyle" can fuck you up... so sorry if you think they aren't rebel rebel enough, at least they're not death, witch can't be said of most people who live "dangerously" for 40 years straight
but of course if you prefer a dead badass rocker over a happy healthy one that's your right



that's today... and i can't see it :crying: :crying: :crying:
but i hadn't heard about that yet, you got some more info on that?

lol, since when did that become "normal"?  Of course, real women couples hook up, that's not the issue at all, but, they don't do it in this manner, in front of cheering men.  If the women in the video, really wanted to be "together", Sorum wouldn't have been there.  You get a group of straight women together at a party, I can guarantee you there won't be any making out.  You get a group of st8 men and women at a party with alcohol, there might be.  It's sexual role playing for the sake of validation, plain and simple. 

Did my point about the GNR videos have anything to do with "groundbreaking"?  Ill answer: no.  I was pointing out to Badgirl that her other favorite band indulged in even worse misogynistic "cliches," and wondering if she had the same objections.  I doubt shed say "Well that was 1994, misogyny was okay then".


No.  Ask me again when they start making the videos with dolphins and air carriers.

well most parties you do see that kind of shit... depends of course what parties and clubs you go to... you won't find much action on a cheese-and-whine evening :hihi:


and it was a threesome... ever tried that? means there are THREE people involved... can be three men, three women, two men and a woman or two women and one man, like here with Matt and the two girls... and he first kissed one girl, then the girl kissed the other girl, and then he kissed them again, that's how it goes... again: nothing special about that... threesomes aren't that rare you know :hihi:


and i said it before: women who make out ONLY to arrouse the men around them are either very drunk or in porn movies... it really doesn't happen that often (unlike threesomes or two girls kissing eachother because they really like it!) would you kiss another girl to turn your bf on? i know i wouldn't! but a threesome is another thing...


and people PLEASE: it was only for one and a half second!!!!!! get over it already!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

I am old and married, so the answer would be no.  I think most threesomes benefit the male don't you?  I don't think Sorum would be involved in boy-boy-girl action.  lol

Obviously you missed the point. The groundbreaking comment was about how some of the 80s stuff were considered cool back then is lame now. Stuff that was groundbreaking/cool/new back then might not be today. Except for the people who still thinks it's 1987.? :hihi:

I'm sure badgirl agrees with me that things done in 1987 when you're about 20 years old isn't as "bad" as things done in 2004 when you're around 40 years old.

I do find it funny how some people say hard rock videos in the 1980s were bad when today's hip hop videos are worse.....


By the way, wasn't this video supposed to have some kind of 1970s "theme" to it?



/jarmo

what did this thread turn into?  :confused:

I dont suppose any of you protesters care to connect the inconsequential lesbo scene with the more relevant and important scene between Scott and Duff hugging each other?  Showing both these things sets up a good contrast between what is real and what is image - which gives the video a lot of depth.  You dont often see that in a straight forward rnr video.  Can anyone see that??


Is the miniscule lesbo scene cliched and hackneyed?  -  I suppose it is.

Do people still enjoy watching it?  -  Most straight guys do even if a few so-called cultured people roll their eyes it. 

Does it make Matt look like an aging wrinkly adolescent?   :hihi:  Yes, but we already knew that, and now the whole world does too.  Just read his "tragic" story about his dog and all the naked women.



 :yes:

THANK YOU! Freya, you always say things better than i do. i feel like those who are disagreeing with me, really aren't understanding what i am actually saying.  :-\
I shouldn't have to say this, but OBVIOUSLY women hook up with other women because they want to. no one is saying that is not the case. what we ARE discussing here, are women who do so in the presence of, and for the entertainment of, men (or in this case, overthehill rock stars who have a sexual inferiority complex of sorts.  :o), WHY they do it, and HOW it is detrimental for all our our sexualities.

i was such a fan of Sorum. at the concert at Roseland, he was super super nice, making eye contact with every fan (male and female), making sure everyone got autographs and pictures. then i laughed my ass off on the Behind The Music when he said "i thought i was joining this hard core rock n roll band... axl, what's with the piano?"  :hihi:
but between the comments he made/makes about banging 21 year olds (which is just so gross- and YES, it is gross when Jagger, a corpse, does it too) and now this little clip, i don't really respect him anymore.

can you all please fucking stop telling us to "get over it". we are having a DISCUSSION here, and its actually an intelligent one, so if you don't like it, don't read it. no one here is angry at the band (disappointed maybe), we are throwing ideas around, listening to perspectives. you get over it. not every post has to be "it's cool"/ "it sucks"

Booker, i will answer your question since i didn't before. the reason 1984 misogonistic videos were okay to me was because i was 6 and i didn't know what misogny was, much less how it impacted my sexual identity. i don't remember those videos (though i do recall a disgusting video by Sam Kinison with his chick in a boxing ring while his rock buddies were egging her on) so i really can't comment on it. All i can discuss is videos today (and obviously rap videos are atrocious) but we are speaking of Velvet Revolver on this board and Fall To Pieces in this thread, so the focus of my attention is there.

But what Freya said is accurate. Most of us tolerate a lot of this shit because we like the music. Some bands use these images because their music is shit (britney), but i expect more from a band like Velvet Revolver whose music speaks for itself.

Well, that's the problem isnt it?  It speaks volumes about women.  I'll let Eminem say it for me:

Feminist women love Eminem
"Slim Shady, I'm sick of him
Look at him, walkin around grabbin his you-know-what
Flippin the you-know-who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"

You'll tolerate things that you consider are degrading to women because you like the music.  What does that say about you?

You can "discuss" Matt Sorum's childish behavior all you want, but at the end of the day you'll support the band and buy their albums.

Would you like to discuss the contrast between the Duff/Scott scene and the Matt/2 chicks scene?  True male affection vs. male titillation...pretty interesting to me. 

very true... in a way it's sad to see how they (celebrities, not just VR or other rockstars!) can get away with almost anything :no:



now this is starting to get better... you can actually have an intelligent discussion about this!
though there's nothing erotic to duff and scott hugging in that alley (or so i hope :hihi:)

Whoa.  What's that about?  It's called being a woman in a man's world.  Maybe in your next life, you'll get some insight into that.  There is a lot of great music out there, with sexist content or videos, I'm certainly not going to boycott all of it, I'm capable enough to take what I want from the music, thank you.  And here's a tip, don't take advice about women from Eminem.  Serious mommy issues. 



I'm not sure what you mean here.  I found it erotic.  It obviously was just meant to be an affectionate scene between friends.  But the sight of those two lean, muscled torsos hanging on each other?  Is hot.  The difference is, it was unintentional and not being done under the watchful gaze of the opposite sex for approval.   

pffff that's a matter of preferance... i know guys who don't have a problem with a threesome with their gf and another MAN! i also know guys who get sick just thinking about it, just like there are women who get sick of the thought of having sex with another girl. So what if matt likes a threesome with two girls better than a threesome with a man and a woman? that's his right, who are we to critisise that?


and there are plenty of threesomes with two men and only one woman too! only those aren't displayed like the ones where there are two women and one man... just like you can easily find images of two girls kissing but two guys is harder to find (though you can see that more and more nowadays)
if you wanna change those stereotypes... well... good luck to you ;D



and this is the last thing i said about the lesbian kissing thingy... i think you need to lighten up and realise that it was just a little detail, unlike the hugging between duff and scott, witch would be much more interesting to discuss... and guess what? that actually is IMPORTANT for the concept of the video too! : ok:
wanna bitch about women being exploited? join a femenist organisation, thank you, goodnight :hihi:

Hey, did any of you guys hear that Velvet Revolver released a new video?  ::)

personally, i don't think one clip justifies a boycott. i will continue to buy their albums as it was not that offensive to me.
what does that say about me? are you trying to suggest that i am a hypocrit? i don't own any music from artists i find offensive. i don't find many artists offensive because i don't really listen to popular music. however, i do find michael jackson offensive and won't go near anything he attaches his name to (not like that is some great sacrifice). similarly, i find most rap music utterly and completely offensive but am fortunate because i don't find any value in it musically so i am not prompted to buy the product in the first place. i found guns n roses somewhat offensive until i read those in-depth interviews with Axl where he pours his heart and mind out and really explains his perspective. i gained a huge amount of respect for him by putting himself out there like that. moreover, he has grown a lot since appetite and, from what we have heard, since Illusions. i don't expect to be offended by him in the future. i think he has come to terms with a lot of his anger at women, and even if he hasn't, the fact that he was and is willing to explain it is good enough for me.

regarding the matt/duff scene? i don't find it that interesting so i am not going to comment on it. if you think its interesting, why don't YOU share your opinions and theories.

what the hell is goin on? i use to use launch.com all the time and now it wont fucking work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to see this video! it's driving me crazy!

D-

Goto velvetrevolver.com and download it. It is an awesome video and you need to see it.

Im sure theres only a relatively small number of people who find two girls kissing lame/uncool, especially when the scope of it is as small and trivial as the scene were discussing.  Girls Gone Wild and the Britney Spears/Madonna incident from only a year ago suggest this much.  Nobodys calling it groundbreaking or new...I honestly didnt even catch it on first viewing.  And when I did catch it, I thought nothing more of it then as the contrast to Scotts scene.  Its no secret thats pretty much Matts lifestyle, so I dont find it surprising, offensive or lame.


Ive never heard that?  Rap videos have recieved plenty of criticism for their misogyny, from all different groups and individuals.


I believe so.  At least the Starwood scenes were supposed to. 

i'm gonna say it is the exactly opposite. VR is not doing any estranged/dontcry/nov.rain video.

and well, the video is cool, but not groundbreaking. i mean, its nouthin special. it is just cool.
we've seen tons of videos like that. a girlfriend of mine even thought of an alicia keys video when she saw VR's. the bad boy being locked awaya, using/selling drugs, the woman being sad ... then they all get together and it's fine.

yeah the more i analyze that video, the more dumb it seems to me.
its just well filmed, well cut. and thats it. it will be forgoten in a week.
VR still rock anyway :)

Seems like I have to explain myself again. In regard to your talk about how GN'R videos were misogynist, I pointed out that some of the things that were "cool" in the 80s would be considered lame today. So, many of the 80s videos with lots of women dancing around in them could be considered lame today.

I wasn't talking about the VR video being lame or groundbreaking. All I said was, things change and just because GN'R did something 15 years ago that was cool then, might not be so cool today.





Ok, so the next question is, is two women kissing a typical 70s thing?  ;D




/jarmo

Watch me emote like a chick flick:


Thank you for discussing, Freya.? It makes sense to view the Matt/2-chicks scene in the context of the video.? There's a lot of contrasts depicted here.? ?I think the video is actually deeper than the song's lyrics which dont say much of anything.?

Other people have pointed out that the shallow cliched scenes with Matt are meant to contrast Scott's agony - in other words, the image of the stereotypical rock n' roll lifestyle vs. reality.?

I also would point out that the Matt scene shows hackneyed male titillation compared to a scene of non-sexual male affection between Duff and Scott.? ?If society is smugly comfortable with women doing things for the pleasure of men, it is equally uncomfortable with men expressing affection to each other.? The two are related, if you want equality, you need it on both ends.? ?That's why I find it interesting...

So, kudos to the video for highlighting all these different contrasts, even if the song's lyrics dont have the same level of expression.

Now that I have contributed something on-topic about the video, I can rant & rave like the rest of you:


My point was that he (ostensibly mysoginistic, regardless of his inner feelings) has a huge female fan base.? You take what you want from a person's music, but you have agreed to live in a man's world.? ?Badgirl disses Christina Aguilera which I find hysterical because X-tina, though she makes pop music, is considered a strong female.? There's very little unity among you.? How is anyone supposed to take feminist issues seriously when a large portion of females dont identify with feminism or show support for so-called liberated females?

i didn't diss Christina. i dissed her music.  :hihi: i like her. i think she is a ballsy chick, albeit perhaps one that tries a bit too hard. she's getting better though.
most women don't identity with feminist ideals (whatever those are) because most of us don't realize that women's representations are a problem that needs fixing. you live in a society for your entire life and are fed the same pop culture junk, you accept the images, they become normal to you, you don't question anything. besides, i don't think wanting equal rights/treatment etc. is conditional upon the agreement of the population in question- don't we all agree that men and women and everything else, everyone else should be treated fairly? (which, really, IS the feminist dogma, or should be- equality. period. but obviously it does get more confusing with the topics we are discussing like representations and ownership or sexuality, commodification of women's sexuality, etc..)) don't let a few confused and, perhaps, insecure girls (the kind who make out with their girlfriends for men, not for each other) dissuade you from "taking feminist issues seriously".

About your theory on the contrast of intimacies in the video. honestly, i think that was too deep for rock n roll. i am impressed that you picked it up, i don't think it was the intention. at all (especially to contrast it with the two girls in the way you explained it). i just don't think they meant it that way.

I think you're right, it probably wasnt intended to mean that way.  I just thought I'd analyze the whole video due to the hoopla over a 1 second shot of a cliched lesbian scene.  :P



good point.  I hadnt thought of it that way.  But it still surprises me that so many women are fans of Eminem, and to some extent, Axl, but that's very off topic.

i think about eminem's female fans this way (being one): if you are critical of him and what he's saying, you are not really a fan (because part of what makes him so amazing is exactly what he is saying and how he is saying it- his music is seeped in irony, i'm sure you know). if you are not critical of him and, like he pointed out, think he's "cute" then you don't get him.

kind of hard to win with him- you have to be really aware of him, his life (he exposes himself and his life in a way that is eerily similar to Axl. this kind of disclosure makes these guys infitinely more appealing and acceptable to me) the irony in his music to not be offended by the lyrics or to like him despite being offended, OR to like being offended.... most people miss out or simply don't care enough.

Theyre misogynist in badgirls rather stringent definition.  I wasnt personally complaining.


Right, so somebody such as badgirl would probably find a lot of GNRs stuff lame, right?  Thats what I was originally asking her.


Understood. 


Couldnt exactly tell you...but at rock and roll haunts such as the Starwood, or even Studio 54, I imagine it wasnt completely unheard of.  Would you agree thats a good possibility?

Hey, I didn't agree, that's just the way it is.


Who considers Xtina a strong female?  I don't.  I find her an uneducated fool.  Very bad example.  I understand what you are trying to say though, but one half of the world is never going to be totally "united" in thought and action, women's experiences vary greatly.   The "groupie" stigma attached to rock/rap music doesn't help. 

Topic?  If Scott is clean now, why is he still so skinny in this video?  Eat some donuts. 


 

Booker, i never defined misogny for you, and i never said Guns n Roses videos were misogynistic.

Freya- i think Scott is going for a certain aesthetic with his body. that whole skinny frontman, a la Bowie, Jagger, Tyler, etc... i don't particularly like it, but it is a look.  :hihi:

I'm not her spokesperson, but I personally can understand why some of those videos portrayed women the way they did.

It was a different period in time.




I asked because I can't say I know.

But it seems to me like the thing has become "popular", with the whole Madonna/Britney thing and all....

So I thought they just put it in the video because everybody else seems to.



/jarmo

i have seen it all now. just caught the video on tv.... they used fucking little people.  :rofl: did they have a fucking checklist of every over trend?!

other than that (and i am really beginning to suspect they intentionally included those cliches), i think the video is going to catch on big time.

Actually it was one, and they really cut out his better parts of the scene

HAHAHAHHAHAHA D welcome to my world. I'm in the exact same boat. I even sent them a nasty email and tried to be the biggest jerk i possibly could. I'll see if i can find it.  :hihi:

flippant, arent ya?? :P? Axl should pass the donuts on to him.  I already stated my opinions about the video and Badgirl replied, so no need to repeat myself.? It's a pity there arent any midgets on HTGTH to complain about the use of midgets for titillation in our society.


implicit agreement.


I referenced her because she was already mentioned in this thread.? : ok: Public perception of Xtina is that while she has terrible taste in clothes, she speaks for young women and does not portray the virgin/tramp aura a la Britney.? She may be uneducated, but she aint June Cleaver. 

"Bad example"?? Maybe for you. I dont know if you could find an example of a 'feminist' that all women would agree to admire.? Gloria Steinem perhaps?? Many women think she's completely wrong about gender differences or lack thereof.? I'm not asking for 100% unity from women on women's issues, but the divisiveness that exists now casts doubt on the relevance of feminism and an implicit agreement to live in a man's world.

No, just straight tramp.  I don't know what public perception you are referring to, but just your belief that Xtina is some kind of young, feminist icon just shows how far apart your ideology is from mine. 

well, to speak the middle ground here. i think in certain ways, christina is carrying a little of the torch that Madonna abandoned sometime after she joined her cult, excuse me, kaballah. i respect that christina is a woman who is in touch with her sexuality. yes, she is selling it, but i feel its authentic rather than some forced identity. she is relatively literate and intelligent (given the collective IQ of her peers like JT and Britney whose IQs must add up to barely triple digits) and doesn't care all that much what people think about her.
i suppose the really sad thing is that anyone can respect christina based on her rather inadequate strengths... that right there shows you how many respectable women we have in popular culture today.  :-\

yeah its a really good video

It's an interesting question...who do you consider more of a liberated woman in music, Christina Aguilera or a rock chick like Janis Joplin?  Xtina expresses her "individuality" by dressing in whatever the hell she wants and freely expressing her sexual attitude, Janis did it by drinking, smoking, outgoing behaviour and basically doing things that society thinks is more of a thing that men do.  So how do you liberate yourself if you're a woman.....doing things that men usually do, or doing things that people say women shouldn't?

"doing things that men usually do, or doing things that people say women shouldn't?"

those tend to be one and the same. i wish there were women today who were more like Janis Joplin. that was a very different time.

You make this judgement of her based on her clothing style, or what?? I'm curious.? Do you disapprove of it? Perhaps you agree with Wendy Shalit's ideas for young women in 'A Return to Modesty'....


So give me an example of a "young, feminist icon" from your perspective, then.? Is there a modern day Susan B. Anthony running around making herself heard?? And do women support her, or call her names such as "uneducated fool"?? ::)


In my extravagant, overblown analysis of the video, I stated that we need to seek equality on both ends with regards to the two scenes I compared of Duff/Scott and Matt.? So that's my ideology, and your's appears to be the typical silent suffering of women who would like a better world, but continue to implicitly support the current status quo.

Here's a guy, so far not overly impressed by VR's efforts, saying: what an awesome vid!? : ok:


Speak for yourself, I think you're twisting the truth to fit your own perceptions. You are right about the scene being fairly trivial, though.

First of all, this is getting way off topic, and do I really have to define "feminist icon" on a gnr board?  But you asked.  Obviously there are icons that cover the gamut.  From Dorothy Parker to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  If you want to talk about a feminist icon in music?  How about Kathleen Hanna? 


No.  The thing is this, what CA and many other younger artists like her, try to do is emulate older icons like Madonna, Debbie Harry, etc., by being provocative but without any artistic or political merit.  Madonna pushed a lot of boundaries with women's sexuality and gay issues, and that was shocking then, it's not taboo now.  CA tries to do it, but just short of the side where she is non-threatening and sexually appealing to men.  Which is fine, if that is what she wants, but don't walk around stating that you're a "strong female" because you dry humped in a video.  It's completely hollow.  And I called her uneducated, because I've heard her speak, and found her somewhat ignorant.  That's what happens when you pull your kids out of school to join the MMC. 

Topic?  The VR video is pretty good, better than the song is.  But that one part is lame, and Sorum is cringe inducing. 

but of course.


In fact, if you read my earlier posts, you will notice I said the exact same thing.   :yes:   It was the tired statements about women's issues that irritated me.



Then I hope you found the Madonna-Britney smooch as cringe-inducing as the FTP video scene, if not more.



She, along with PJ Harvey, and a few others were admirably in the forefront of alt. music back when I was high school.  PJ Harvey had an incredible song called man-sized (or something).  I'm dont know what became of them though.

Sorry folks, but this vid is a huge letdown.? :-[
It's soooo 'seen it, been there, done that - over it' type of video. The storyline is a bit tired, but fits the lyrics, however, it's the execution that is so flat, so lame, and so unbelievably uncreative and stale. Never mind the clich?s; it's possible to make great vids packed with banalities (remember e.g. Prodigy's Smack my bitch up), but com'on; the filming, the colours, the editing is conclusively outdated. I guess this was cool in 1993, when the troopers last checked out MTV.

OK, I just wanna say.  Stop all this shit.  Lesbians and threesomes and Christina Aguilara ALL kick ASS!  They are all amazing!  And yes, I am married... and yes, my wife knows my views... :)

 ???

Care to elaborate on what makes the storyline tired? 

And colors being outdated?  Yeah, youve lost me... :-X

i saw the video last night on VH1 and its one of the best videos ive seen in years! It was so awesome because it was so autobiographical!

seeing Scott in situations u know he's been in before made it very very powerful

i cannot wait to see this video again! very touchin moments with scott and duff, i still dont like matt much, matt seems like he tries to hard to be cool etc etc, u ever know people like that? thats how i always took matt, but the scott parts were awesome!