Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/141821.asp

---- Original Message ----

From: Bill Gates
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:05 AM
To: Jim Allchin
Cc: Chris Jones (WINDOWS); Bharat Shah (NT); Joe Peterson; Will Poole; Brian Valentine; Anoop Gupta (RESEARCH)
Subject: Windows Usability Systematic degradation flame

I am quite disappointed at how Windows Usability has been going backwards and the program management groups don't drive usability issues.

Let me give you my experience from yesterday.

I decided to download (Moviemaker) and buy the Digital Plus pack ... so I went to Microsoft.com. They have a download place so I went there.

The first 5 times I used the site it timed out while trying to bring up the download page. Then after an 8 second delay I got it to come up.

This site is so slow it is unusable.

It wasn't in the top 5 so I expanded the other 45.

These 45 names are totally confusing. These names make stuff like: C:\Documents and Settings\billg\My Documents\My Pictures seem clear.

They are not filtered by the system ... and so many of the things are strange.

I tried scoping to Media stuff. Still no moviemaker. I typed in movie. Nothing. I typed in movie maker. Nothing.

So I gave up and sent mail to Amir saying - where is this Moviemaker download? Does it exist?

So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated.

They told me to go to the main page search button and type movie maker (not moviemaker!).

I tried that. The site was pathetically slow but after 6 seconds of waiting up it came.

I thought for sure now I would see a button to just go do the download.

In fact it is more like a puzzle that you get to solve. It told me to go to Windows Update and do a bunch of incantations.

This struck me as completely odd. Why should I have to go somewhere else and do a scan to download moviemaker?

So I went to Windows update. Windows Update decides I need to download a bunch of controls. (Not) just once but multiple times where I get to see weird dialog boxes.

Doesn't Windows update know some key to talk to Windows?

Then I did the scan. This took quite some time and I was told it was critical for me to download 17megs of stuff.

This is after I was told we were doing delta patches to things but instead just to get 6 things that are labeled in the SCARIEST possible way I had to download 17meg.

So I did the download. That part was fast. Then it wanted to do an install. This took 6 minutes and the machine was so slow I couldn't use it for anything else during this time.

What the heck is going on during those 6 minutes? That is crazy. This is after the download was finished.

Then it told me to reboot my machine. Why should I do that? I reboot every night -- why should I reboot at that time?

So I did the reboot because it INSISTED on it. Of course that meant completely getting rid of all my Outlook state.

So I got back up and running and went to Windows Update again. I forgot why I was in Windows Update at all since all I wanted was to get Moviemaker.

So I went back to Microsoft.com and looked at the instructions. I have to click on a folder called WindowsXP. Why should I do that? Windows Update knows I am on Windows XP.

What does it mean to have to click on that folder? So I get a bunch of confusing stuff but sure enough one of them is Moviemaker.

So I do the download. The download is fast but the Install takes many minutes. Amazing how slow this thing is.

At some point I get told I need to go get Windows Media Series 9 to download.

So I decide I will go do that. This time I get dialogs saying things like "Open" or "Save". No guidance in the instructions which to do. I have no clue which to do.

The download is fast and the install takes 7 minutes for this thing.

So now I think I am going to have Moviemaker. I go to my add/remove programs place to make sure it is there.

It is not there.

What is there? The following garbage is there. Microsoft Autoupdate Exclusive test package, Microsoft Autoupdate Reboot test package, Microsoft Autoupdate testpackage1. Microsoft AUtoupdate testpackage2, Microsoft Autoupdate Test package3.

Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up.

But that is just the start of the crap. Later I have listed things like Windows XP Hotfix see Q329048 for more information. What is Q329048? Why are these series of patches listed here? Some of the patches just things like Q810655 instead of saying see Q329048 for more information.

What an absolute mess.

Moviemaker is just not there at all.

So I give up on Moviemaker and decide to download the Digital Plus Package.

I get told I need to go enter a bunch of information about myself.

I enter it all in and because it decides I have mistyped something I have to try again. Of course it has cleared out most of what I typed.

I try (typing) the right stuff in 5 times and it just keeps clearing things out for me to type them in again.

So after more than an hour of craziness and making my programs list garbage and being scared and seeing that Microsoft.com is a terrible website I haven't run Moviemaker and I haven't got the plus package.

The lack of attention to usability represented by these experiences blows my mind. I thought we had reached a low with Windows Network places or the messages I get when I try to use 802.11. (don't you just love that root certificate message?)

When I really get to use the stuff I am sure I will have more feedback.

I sit here laughing quietly to myself from my iMac.

....in your mother's basement sipping wine after sniffing it's cork so you can now do some arty farty stuff in photo editing..... :peace:

Couldn't afford a PC?

Some cutting edge humour right there.

All Mac users I know are or arty farty corksniffers who think they are from a special race because they don't know how to make XP run fast and stable : ok:

After having to work a Sun SPARC workstation for several years *shudder*,  using a Wintel or a Mac just feels good.

Here's a side dish to go along with your morning coffee: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/past-present-future-file-systems.ars/1 (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/past-present-future-file-systems.ars/1)  It's funny to boot!

Yeah, it really sucks having something that does everything you want as soon as you get it rather than having to put in time and energy to polish a turd.

(http://i28.tinypic.com/2e5hxmt.jpg)

You just wish I was there with you.   

Sorry, not into that whole thing.  :)

For the record I still use Wintel boxes on a daily basis and have worked extensively with the Windows platform since 3.1.  I've even done programming on Windows 2.0.   I was using beta versions of Window95 when it was merely a shell update for Windows 3.11.     But it's nice to have s stable platform that just works.  And well.

He'c complaining about a 6 second delay? Thats nothing to the average customer, sometimes it takes longer then that on my cable line to open a page. I think he might be out of touch with reality.

I know quite a few Mac users, but don't know anyone (mac or pc) who sniffs corks. Sounds like you're some kind of corksniffer groupie.

Haha, that looks like the Manson Family Christmas card.

^ Looks like the Physics Dept. at a University ... today. ;D

Install XP, tweak literally 15 minutes in the services and shut off certain options in configuartion..........done.

Fast, stable, clean.

Mac costs almost 2 times more for the same performance...you cannot play most games....you will have problems with certain hardware and software (don't even pretend)...the new breed of hackers are targeting Macs with their trojans....and if you want to make it faster, you can't upgrade the hardware, no you must buy a new one....so if I want to get a new exhaust for my car, I will buy a new car....yeah, great  :peace:

And yes, I had one, that's how I know it's an overrated piece of junk for everyday use...XP is more than enough if you got a higher IQ than 70.  Sure, if you are a professional designer or something use Mac, but for others it's just corksniffing and pretending you are better  : ok:

 

Oh.  My.  God.

Wrong on SO many levels. 

But sure - believe whatever you want.

XP is by no means a "turd."  ::)
 
P.S your avatar on the other hand....

LOL, second rate troll ^^

At least be good at what you want to do...jeez.  :hihi:



Like this guy ^^

He personifies miserable, and has set out to make sure you know it.

He's light years away from your limp wristed half measures we see here.

Get to work you poon!

Ha, you guys are such dimwits. Arguing whether shit is better than crap. Come over to the dark side and play with Linux.

lol, because spending 4 hours finding WLAN drivers for a Linksys card is uber-cool.

And you're so fucking happy right?! SLC is nothing but a pampered fool.

Pampered? haha, by whom?

I have an dual booting iMac and prefer to be on XP rather than OSX.

XP just seems cleaner to me for some reason. Mac seems goofy and the mouse acceleration is so annoying... this is coming from someone who used OSX and OS9 at home before using XP.

Not everyone can be a first class troll like you..it needs lots of posts and deteriation of brain cells  :peace:






Guess what, you got 



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/Decapitated_/stalowned.jpg)




again  : ok:

Yea, wow, you're really smart.  :hihi:

Your Mom just shit you out didn't she?  :hihi:

As long as "what you want it to do" = an available piece of software for the mac.....or you give up performance (and your interface advantages) by running it in Virtual PC mode (or are willing to install XP, dual boot...of course, native XP performance on Mac hardware compared to similar PC hardware doesn't translate too well).

And as long as "what you want it to do" doesn''t involve signing on, reliably, to your Windows based work environment....without jumping through technical hoops that make your hair turn grey.

And as long as you don't want to play MOST of the latest games.

As long as you're OK with all that......Mac's are great for desktop publishing and photo editing.....oh, and listening to music!

:)

Yes....yes it is.

But when you need stable AND Useable....then you're fucked.

See, I love Macs.  No, really...I do.

The problem is: They don't do anything (or, mostly anything) that I need them to do.  I can't use them to work from home without doing a LOT more work to make them actually sign into our VPN, access our software, and let me actually work.  I can't play most of the games I want to at an acceptable level of performance (or at all, in some cases).  There's a whole slew of things I just can't do with a Mac (or can't do well enough, quickly enough, or easily enough to matter).....stable or not.

I have a multipartitioned (BIG) drive on my PC: Windows XP (which is now remarkably stable....just as they sunset it) and Linux.  They get me everything I want to do, and then some.

Mac is nice if you want to do REALLY basic stuff....it's also nice if you're coding in a "portable" environment...but I can get all that PLUS the stuff I want to be able to do in one (well, two if you count Linux as a seperate platform on the same box)......agreeably more unstable...platform.    So I'll trade the stability for useability when it comes right down to it.

Could you point out where?

I mean, there's some oversimplification and some slight exagerations...but he's basically right.  You can run XP or Vista (why???!!) natively, but you don't get the same level of performance of a Wintel PC of equivalent price (I don't know about 2x difference.....).  You can run SOME Windows apps at close to native performance levels without installing a version of Windows, but others (games, especially) run like dogs.

You CAN upgrade the hardware in the Pro series, though.....just not the every day iMac's...right?

I'm certainly no Mac expert.  They won't do exactly what I need them to, so I pay a lot less attention to them...but I'm always willing to learn something from someone who knows more than me...so please, do tell.

If it takes you that long to find 'em....you're not looking in the right place.

And if you don't know where to look....Linux isn't your thing....and you probably don't need it.

Everytime you get Stallowned, you try the girly mom jokes....nice move, they are funny too ...it proves you are a Mac user hiding in your mommy's basement editing pics for your own pleasure :peace:

Agreed.  For home gaming I use an XBox, not my Mac.  No screwing around with drivers to load, no silly DirectX compatability issues.  And no matter how drunk I am I can still manage to turn on the XBox and run a game without having to mess around.    So for me - both Mac and PC are weak gaming platforms. 

I have a work laptop for doing work stuff.   I'm not under the illusion that it's made to replace my work PC.  It's not.  Just like the iPhone is not made to replace the Blackberry.   Different tools for different uses. 

Admittedly this was 4 or so years ago, the last time I tried Linux.   And I searched and DID found some forums that gave me a way to download various files and compile the drivers myself.   No thanks.   And don't get me wrong, I can geek it up with the best of them.  I'm a former MCSE (back when it meant something) and have a bucket of other vendor certifications.  I just want my home computer to do what I want, when I want. 

Price.  It's not 2 times the price.  People who say that often come up with some bland clone software-less computer for the sake of comparison.  Or they'll compare the high end Mac laptop with a bottom dollar Dell box.   Sure you CAN get cheaper, but the disparity between the two is nowhere near as huge as it was.

I game a LOT.  I have an Xbox 360, Wii, PS3, and my PC.  They all have their niches.  You can't really play a good MMO without a PC.....and I shudder at RTS games on any other platform.  And honestly, the amount of time I spend on drivers is almost non-existent.  With ATI and Nvidia basically streamling that process, it's basically a non-issue.  No where close to what it was back in the old days (think "Kings Quest") of gaming.

I don't want any more hardware (see above) around than I have already.  For me, the things the Mac is really good at....just aren't things that really matter to me.  The things that matter...the PC offers me the best across the board versatility and usefulness.  Granted, I trade some stability for that (and with XP, now...I'm not sure just how different the Mac and PC stability differences are...with Vista, it's much larger).  I'm OK with that trade off.

I don't use Linux for typical home stuff.  It's for programming (Perl, mostly...but, God help me, even some COBOL for an old friend who is just addicted to the POS software I built for him back in College) or DBA stuff (Oracle 9i and Sybase SQL).  In other words, "geeky" stuff.  So, if I have to do "geeky stuff" to make the platform do what I want..I'm OK with that. 

Again, that discussion is sort of outside the "Mac vs PC" discussion because there's nothing stopping someone from dual booting a mac with OSX and Linux.  Not sure on performance....

OK, agreed.

The price difference is not what it was.

However, I would argue that there is a pretty large disparity in price to performance when running WINDOWS software.

Meaning this:

If I want to run Win XP and Windows appilcations MOSTLY (due to work, gaming, or whatever)...software that doesn't exist for the Mac platform, for example...to get the EXACT same level of performance I can spend far less by just buying a PC.  Maybe not 1/2.  But usually several hundred dollars less, certainly....at similar WINDOWS software performance levels.  Again, I'll trade the stability for the cost savings and additional versatility (for me).

If I'm a techie (and I am), I can also BUILD my own PC for a HECK of a lot less than I can get a similarly specced mac.  I typically spend around 600 to 700 on my PC, and walk away with a pretty high end rig.  I don't think that opportunity exists amongst most "techie" Mac users (though, admittedly, there are methods to get OSX on pretty standard "PC" configs, now).

Again, I don't dislike Macs.  Like you said: Different tools for different jobs.  I just don't do the jobs Mac seems to do best....and I suspect that might be true of a LARGE number of users.  Maybe it is just better "brainwashing" of the consumer, by MS and Intel (until recently) over the years.    While I suspect that's part of it, I also know that consumers typically are pretty good about, eventually, switching technologies when something REALLY taps into the market.  So far, though, the Mac hasn't done that (swayed the consumer).  I think that says it all.

Whats with all the fighting in this thread!

Anyway I saw a cool interview with Bill Gates last week on the BBC where he talks about the future of Microsoft. He seems to think that the days of buying software are coming to an end because of this new "cloud" system that contains loads of software so you just hook up to that instead of buying software for a single PC. Im a bit vague on the details but it was interesting.   :peace:

I think the days of "hard" media are quickly coming to an end, at least on the supply side (consumers will likely always want hard media as archives...but we can transfer the media ourselves...we don't need the supplier/manufacturer to do it for us).  Digital distribution is becoming more and more the norm.  We're just starting to get to the point where the pipelines are big enough, and readily available enough, that "Joe Consumer" can jump on and DL software, video, and music without having inordinately long wait times.  And wireless tech has jumped up to a level where setting up a home wireless network is becoming "consumer level"....and fast enough to deliver media/software at acceptable rates for high level quality.

So, in that respect, I agree.

I've seen the "cloud" model, which is very subscription based.  I'm not sure it will work with software or not.  With media....I think it works very well.  With software, I'm just not sure. 

What about something like Google Documents?  Does that qualify as both cloud software and cloud media? I find it convenient to edit proposals/cover letters and random spreadsheets online, no need for OpenOffice or MSWorks and USB flash drives. Admittedly I wouldnt use it for editing private documents, so there is still some need for the offline software, but increasingly less so.



yech...the only thing worse than writing Perl code for me is reading other people's. But it's the only language I know of with regular expressions built into the language, so it's not going to be uprooted anytime soon.  But whenever possible, I encourage my students to consider using Python, easier for them to write, easier for me to read.

I was reading some random blog and one of the points made was that the future of languages and OS's needs to be how well they run on a cluster of CPUs. I know Microsoft is actively pursuing research in this area, not sure about Apple.