Israel : 18 deads. Kids.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

alright

so what's bad about israel?
i mean, do you guys really live in a disney movie?

[SLCPUNK]

believe that isreal does not target civilians and that there deaths are an accident

 

I live in IL and sometimes watch the news of course it was an accident , and the palistinians  make a big deal from this only when they need the press ,

Palestine does not "use" or is able to "use" the press in America.

However, Israel does, without a shadow of a doubt, use their pro Israel lobby to influence the way "incidents" are reported in the middle east on a daily basis.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

believe that isreal does not target civilians and that there deaths are an accident

 

I live in IL and sometimes watch the news of course it was an accident , and the palistinians  make a big deal from this only when they need the press ,

Palestine does not "use" or is able to "use" the press in America.

However, Israel does, without a shadow of a doubt, use their pro Israel lobby to influence the way "incidents" are reported in the middle east on a daily basis.

didnt you know that the Hamas owned the Ilinois Herald Tribune  ?!!??

[Surfrider]

believe that isreal does not target civilians and that there deaths are an accident

?

I live in IL and sometimes watch the news of course it was an accident , and the palistinians? make a big deal from this only when they need the press ,

Palestine does not "use" or is able to "use" the press in America.

However, Israel does, without a shadow of a doubt, use their pro Israel lobby to influence the way "incidents" are reported in the middle east on a daily basis.

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

How come we don't create full threads when Islamists kill people?  When that happens it is usually the fault of the United States.  Why don't we start creating a thread everytime Islamists kill children or blow someone up.  They do it intentionally, yet noone here continuously condemns them.  Instead, they are viewed as victims or fighting US and Israeli imperialism.  Yet, when the US or Israel miss a target they are painted as the devil.

Some things are just ass-backwards.

[Sakib]

Your all still trying to place blame somewhere

'Israel doesn't target civilians'

'The Palestinians are fighting occuptation'

While these groups believe what they do is right it will continue forever

Both sides are evil, they have committed unspeakable atrocities. Palestinians blew up resturants, Israel blows up city block, its tit for tat

When they are both isolated and face universal condemnation - then it will stop

But lest face it - no one wants it to stop

The Israelis and Palestinians actively work against anything that would lead to peace

Both sides love the current situation as it validates both, it gives them something to believe in and gives them a purpose

America loves the situation because they can sell billions of dollars worth of weapons to Israel, have influence in the area and fight muslims in true crusading style

Muslims love it because they can fight America and satisfy their own paranoia that everyone is out to get them

When America disowns Israel and Islam disowns Palestine there will be peace

Why would Islam disown Palestine? Palestine has a lot of religious significance and in Jerusalem Masjid al-Aqsa, third holiest mosque in the world so israel is bloody significant. Anyway in Bethlehem, the church where xmas nativities are held are opened by Muslim keeper so peace can be attained.

What did i just write? Did u read any of it?

I didnt say Palestinians should leave their land - i said Muslims should disown the terrorists activities of Palestinians

When people stop defending the crimes of both sides things will change

sorry that wasnt obvious froom the post, or i misunderstood

[The Dog]

believe that isreal does not target civilians and that there deaths are an accident

 

I live in IL and sometimes watch the news of course it was an accident , and the palistinians  make a big deal from this only when they need the press ,

Palestine does not "use" or is able to "use" the press in America.

However, Israel does, without a shadow of a doubt, use their pro Israel lobby to influence the way "incidents" are reported in the middle east on a daily basis.

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

How come we don't create full threads when Islamists kill people?  When that happens it is usually the fault of the United States.  Why don't we start creating a thread everytime Islamists kill children or blow someone up.  They do it intentionally, yet noone here continuously condemns them.  Instead, they are viewed as victims or fighting US and Israeli imperialism.  Yet, when the US or Israel miss a target they are painted as the devil.

Some things are just ass-backwards.

The reason nobody posts anything when Islamists kill people is b/c What-ever I'm Buggin is an anti-semite.  Its really simple as that.  I've said that a few times and he never even tries to deny it.

[SLCPUNK]

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

[Surfrider]

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

I have never said there isn't a Pro Israel Lobby.  However, there are just as many people that condemn Israel.  Sometimes I don't think we are supportive enough of Israel.  We make them do our dirty work and then quasi-support them.

[SLCPUNK]

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

I have never said there isn't a Pro Israel Lobby.  However, there are just as many people that condemn Israel.  Sometimes I don't think we are supportive enough of Israel.  We make them do our dirty work and then quasi-support them.

You are changing the subject as we go.

I didn't claim you did not.

We support Israel big time, more than we should. There was a great paper written by a Harvard professor not too long ago that addressed this.

[Surfrider]

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

I have never said there isn't a Pro Israel Lobby.? However, there are just as many people that condemn Israel.? Sometimes I don't think we are supportive enough of Israel.? We make them do our dirty work and then quasi-support them.

You are changing the subject as we go.

I didn't claim you did not.

We support Israel big time, more than we should. There was a great paper written by a Harvard professor not too long ago that addressed this.

I am not changing the subject.? You changed the subject.? The original subject was the American media's pro-Israeli stance.? I know Israel has a strong lobby to our government.? However, there is a large lobby that is strongly against Israel.? Most of the time, I think we are right to support them.  I strongly disagree that with your contention that we support them too much.? Like I said, sometimes I don't think we support them enough on certain issues.? The world expects Israel to act one way and its opponents to act another way.? Israel is in a unique position.? It is easy for other countries to tell them what to do and how they should handle being in a region where everyone wants them destroyed.? I am guessing that if other countries were in Israel's position and constantly being attacked they would handle themselves the same as Israel.? You can't make peace with people that only want you destroyed.?

[SLCPUNK]

I replied to a poster who said that Palestine used the media to their advantage.

You claimed that most of America is not sympathetic to Israel.

I disagreed saying that the Israel Lobby makes sure we see them in a good light by shaping our medias reporting on Israel. Using specific words, while deleting others etc.

Your response: You never said there was not an Israel Lobby. That was not what I said to you. Therefore, you changed the subject in order to avoid my point, or wasn't paying attention.

Keep up.

[The Dog]

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

I have never said there isn't a Pro Israel Lobby.  However, there are just as many people that condemn Israel.  Sometimes I don't think we are supportive enough of Israel.  We make them do our dirty work and then quasi-support them.

You are changing the subject as we go.

I didn't claim you did not.

We support Israel big time, more than we should. There was a great paper written by a Harvard professor not too long ago that addressed this.

I am not changing the subject.  You changed the subject.  The original subject was the American media's pro-Israeli stance.  I know Israel has a strong lobby to our government.  However, there is a large lobby that is strongly against Israel.  Most of the time, I think we are right to support them.  I strongly disagree that with your contention that we support them too much.  Like I said, sometimes I don't think we support them enough on certain issues.  The world expects Israel to act one way and its opponents to act another way.  Israel is in a unique position.  It is easy for other countries to tell them what to do and how they should handle being in a region where everyone wants them destroyed.  I am guessing that if other countries were in Israel's position and constantly being attacked they would handle themselves the same as Israel.  You can't make peace with people that only want you destroyed. 

I agree with you 100% Berkeley.  Especially your last line.  Whatever Buggin can spout all the hate speech he wants but this is the middle east in a nutshell:

If hamas/hezbollah had the capabilities, money, weapons to wipe out Israel - they would in a heartbeat
Israel HAS the capabilities to completely destroy the land which Hamas/Hezbollah live on - yet they don't wipe them out.

If the terrorism ends, so does the violence.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Despite your contention, most of the American media is not too sympathetic to Israel.

Apparently you have never heard of the Pro Israel Lobby which not only shape public opinion, but our very own policies.

I have never said there isn't a Pro Israel Lobby.  However, there are just as many people that condemn Israel.  Sometimes I don't think we are supportive enough of Israel.  We make them do our dirty work and then quasi-support them.

You are changing the subject as we go.

I didn't claim you did not.

We support Israel big time, more than we should. There was a great paper written by a Harvard professor not too long ago that addressed this.

I am not changing the subject.  You changed the subject.  The original subject was the American media's pro-Israeli stance.  I know Israel has a strong lobby to our government.  However, there is a large lobby that is strongly against Israel.  Most of the time, I think we are right to support them.  I strongly disagree that with your contention that we support them too much.  Like I said, sometimes I don't think we support them enough on certain issues.  The world expects Israel to act one way and its opponents to act another way.  Israel is in a unique position.  It is easy for other countries to tell them what to do and how they should handle being in a region where everyone wants them destroyed.  I am guessing that if other countries were in Israel's position and constantly being attacked they would handle themselves the same as Israel.  You can't make peace with people that only want you destroyed. 

I agree with you 100% Berkeley.  Especially your last line.  Whatever Buggin can spout all the hate speech he wants but this is the middle east in a nutshell:

If hamas/hezbollah had the capabilities, money, weapons to wipe out Israel - they would in a heartbeat
Israel HAS the capabilities to completely destroy the land which Hamas/Hezbollah live on - yet they don't wipe them out.

If the terrorism ends, so does the violence.

no they wont
no they cant

geopolitics go further than the simple "capability" of wiping a country out.

[Izzy]

If hamas/hezbollah had the capabilities, money, weapons to wipe out Israel - they would in a heartbeat
Israel HAS the capabilities to completely destroy the land which Hamas/Hezbollah live on - yet they don't wipe them out.

If the terrorism ends, so does the violence.

So The Palestinians should just surrender?

The issue is more complex than that - the solution can never be one side doing all the work

Both sides have to disarm simultaneously. They are both to blame

Its not a question of the evil palestinians attacking freedom or the evil israelis terrosing civilians

Both 'interpretations' are wrong and propoganda used by both sides

People need to stop accepting what they are told

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

a solution has to come thru justice and fairness.
all over the world, locally, or globaly. micro or macro.
things go wrong when justice is not found.
people rebel and go on strike when they think they dont get what they deserve.
terrorism emerge as a consequence of humiliation and injustice (i do not say it is the whole mechanic here, but the synergy is there).

Look at the world. Globally North and South. There is a strong nonequilibrium (econonically, envrionnementally) and therefore : tensions.

so as much as you love Israel and as much as you hate muslims, you cannot deny the fact that justice is not there. because if there was justice, there would be peace. Some would say that terrorists are crazy and war would go on, cause some of the extremists (both sides) wouldnt be happy with a fait sharing ; but the fact is that it would be resolved / eaten by the ambient peace reaching process.

right now, justice is not there. obviously.
and defending yourself during an unfair situation does not mean anything.


and now a question that i really would like answered by the israel supporters here:

OK, i am obviously leaning towards the palestinian cause. i wont deny it.
i am no muslim. i have no family in palestine or in the part of the globe.
my opinions are purely based on what i read or hear, and my personal feelings / moral / ethics.
and i you simply explain the situation to a kid (simple facts), he will, naturally go the palestinian side (there was a study in europe that showed how younger teens are more on that side of the issue, altho the study showed they knew very little about the situation) this is explained by the fact:
the human being, naturally go for the "weak" and apply the basic "alliance" against empire thoughts.


now you. pro israel, i am trying to understand why
if you're a communautarist jewish and attached to your religion, i understand.
if you have family there, or related in some ways, ok.

now the random american, lost in Illinois, who is not jewish, what's the deal?
unless you studied the subject hard, and after all that, still go 100% for israel because of your view on the world (i would doubt that, considering a country raised on disney movies, where the big ones are always the mean ones)

the only plausible explanation would be the fear/hate of muslim / middle east thing, and link that issue to the "usa vs. rest of the world" issue.


and SECOND IMPORTANT QUESTION

please, please, list the bad things about israel. i have NEVER read anything bad about israel (in this issue) coming out of your mouth. that is, i am sorry, lack of objective judgement. and shows blind understanding.

[The Dog]

Whatever-Buggin - I wouldn't say I am "pro-Israel", more like anti terrorism.  If I am "anti-muslim/arabic" then I must hate myself as I am part Lebanese.  I am not Jewish (catholic actually) nor is anyone in my family.  Despite your assumptions and accusations I am NOT pro-violence.  I hate it and believe it should be a last resort.  Sometimes it is the only action available.  I don't think the palestinians exhausted all their options before they started terrorizing civilians.  Days after the UN recognized Israel as a country and the Brits withdrew from the Palestine Mandate the Arabs ordered attacks against Jewish civilians.  Where were the peaceful marches? The demonstrations? The appeals to the world for sympathy?

Do I sympathize with them, of course I do.  If someone came to me and said, "sorry, you can't live here anymore, we're giving this land to someone else" - I'd be furious.  I'd be angry as hell.  But I can honestly say I would never resort to violence.

Let me ask you this, do you sympathize with Israel at all?  What would you do if you were them and everyone around you wanted you to die, wanted to kill you?  Do you think the terror groups are in the wrong at all?

Your assertion that the person in Illinios is misinformed, uneducated and "wrong" for siding with Israel is pretty silly.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  Cleary there is no clear right or wrong here, yet I get the feeling you think there is.  You mentioned a few times that the "bigger" of the two is always the more evil/empiric then the "weaker, smaller" underdog.  This is also patently false.  The majority is not always in the wrong.  To say the ONLY plausible explanation is racism or hate for arab people is also pretty stupid and inflamatory.  If you really think thats the ONLY reason someone could side with Israel more then the terrorists then you are reading VERY biased material.

For your SECOND and IMPORTANT question:
Yes, I am aware of the political and economic obstacles imposed by Israel and some of them are very severe. I do not for a second think they are total angels in the conflict.  I never said they were.

Can you list the bad things about Palestine/Hamas???

I have more to say but I have to get going.  I hope you answer my questions as I have answered yours.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

i will, i have to go to a meeting now, i will answer

and i didnt want to sound inflammatory, sorry.

[Izzy]

I don't think the palestinians exhausted all their options before they started terrorizing civilians.? Days after the UN recognized Israel as a country and the Brits withdrew from the Palestine Mandate the Arabs ordered attacks against Jewish civilians.? Where were the peaceful marches? The demonstrations? The appeals to the world for sympathy?

Sigh

Do u actually know about the evnts that led to the declaration of an Israeli state?

I assume u therefore know about the jewish terrorism, the attacks on British forces etc, the crippling cost of keeping forces there to police the area?

Whats my point? Ur still viewing this from a certain perspective. You need to lose that perspective.

[Alina]

Days after the UN recognized Israel as a country and the Brits withdrew from the Palestine Mandate the Arabs ordered attacks against Jewish civilians.  Where were the peaceful marches? The demonstrations? The appeals to the world for sympathy?

the Un wanted to make here two countries one for jew people and one for the palistinians,
Israel exist over 50 years , how many times the palestinians could make a real country for their self -if they realy wanted this , they will had a theirs country right now.
but it doesnt seems they want it soo much .

[The Dog]

If hamas/hezbollah had the capabilities, money, weapons to wipe out Israel - they would in a heartbeat
Israel HAS the capabilities to completely destroy the land which Hamas/Hezbollah live on - yet they don't wipe them out.

If the terrorism ends, so does the violence.

So The Palestinians should just surrender?

The issue is more complex than that - the solution can never be one side doing all the work

Both sides have to disarm simultaneously. They are both to blame

Its not a question of the evil palestinians attacking freedom or the evil israelis terrosing civilians

Both 'interpretations' are wrong and propoganda used by both sides

People need to stop accepting what they are told

no one is saying "surrender" and just "deal with it".  there are alternatives to violence that historically have worked.  Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi are prime examples of achieving huge social changes without using any violence.

Israel can't disarm when every country around it wants to destroy it.  What they need to do is offer fair concessions of land.  if they do that, it should be accepted by the other side and peace should be attained.  hasn't israel conceded land and yet they still get attacked?