Do you agree with this statement ?

[Irish gunner II]

"Noone, with their freedom intact, should ever get to the point of suicide, and if they do, they have only their self to blame."


Well I would just like fellow posters views on this statement that was said by a poster in the Slash Autobiography thread.

I don't want to clog up that thread any more so I said I would set up a new one.

[CheapJon]

not sure i fully understood that statement but here's my view on the matter anyway:

the mind is probably the hardest thing to understand.. suicide is one something you can't generalize, people who do generalize stuff like that are both norrowminded and plain stupid IMO.. but suicide is probably never the best sollution to ones problems


(hope you get how i mean and that i made some sense at least)

[loretian]

For the record, I made the statement, and feeling that the Slash Autobiography Thread was not the appropriate place for the discussion, I suggested we move it here, if Irish Gunner II wished.

Obviously, I stand behind the statement.? To say that one's depression can be caused by someone else is to say their happiness is dependent on others, and I don't think it's a healthy way to live your life where your happiness it dependent on others.

Have it at!

Edit: Just to make a few more points.? First of all, it was a bit of a generalization, but it was one sentence in a huge "review" I wrote of the Slash Autobiography thread.? I honestly did not believe I would need to defend it, or tried to characterize all the nuances and shades of gray that do exist within the human mind.? I also believe compassion is a cornerstone of humanity, and incredibly important, in fact, a necessity to living a healthy life.

Here is the original post for anyone that would like to read it: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=49482.msg1012893#msg1012893

[Irish gunner II]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

[loretian]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.  So far you've only accused me of various things, you haven't actually pointed out how I'm wrong.

[Irish gunner II]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.? So far you've only accused me of various things, you haven't actually pointed out how I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the attitude you have. That is not a rational statment you have made. People who are depressed are NOT TO BLAME for the way they feel, It's not as if they want to be that way,but you are saying that they have brought it upon themselves and "they only have their selfs to blame"(your words). That's where you are wrong and I have pointed that out many times already, so YES I have actually pointed out where you are wrong.

[loretian]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.? So far you've only accused me of various things, you haven't actually pointed out how I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the attitude you have. That is not a rational statment you have made. People who are depressed are NOT TO BLAME for the way they feel, It's not as if they want to be that way,but you are saying that they have brought it upon themselves and "they only have their selfs to blame"(your words). That's where you are wrong and I have pointed that out many times already, so YES I have actually pointed out where you are wrong.

"That's where you are wrong and I have pointed that out many times already, so YES I have actually pointed out where you are wrong."? Ok, you pointed out where you believe I was wrong, fair enough.? Could you get into the details of actually how and why I am wrong?

Actually, this is stupid.  If you want to attack me, or "expose me", or whatever, in this thread, then continue on doing so; be my guest.  I went back and read the rest of the thread, and Ali understood what I was saying.  To quote him:

Slash blaming Axl for his suicidal state, if he did in fact do that even indirectly, is weak.  It's playing the victim.  The point is that we are all in the end responsible for our own mental and emotional health.  No one else is.

Very simple.  That's exactly what I've been getting at, perhaps not stating it as well as he did.  If my "sweeping statement" came off the wrong way, I again apologize.

[chineseblues]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.  So far you've only accused me of various things, you haven't actually pointed out how I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the attitude you have. That is not a rational statment you have made. People who are depressed are NOT TO BLAME for the way they feel, It's not as if they want to be that way,but you are saying that they have brought it upon themselves and "they only have their selfs to blame"(your words). That's where you are wrong and I have pointed that out many times already, so YES I have actually pointed out where you are wrong.

They might not be to blame for it, but then surely they couldn't blame it on others either. Saying that, if you commit suicide, then the blame falls squarely on you're own shoulders as suicide is the cowards way out. My former landlord committed suicide last winter by drinking 500 ml of ammonia. He left his wife and 2 small kids to deal with what he had done. He also left them with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.

[Irish gunner II]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.? So far you've only accused me of various things, you haven't actually pointed out how I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the attitude you have. That is not a rational statment you have made. People who are depressed are NOT TO BLAME for the way they feel, It's not as if they want to be that way,but you are saying that they have brought it upon themselves and "they only have their selfs to blame"(your words). That's where you are wrong and I have pointed that out many times already, so YES I have actually pointed out where you are wrong.

They might not be to blame for it, but then surely they couldn't blame it on others either. Saying that, if you commit suicide, then the blame falls squarely on you're own shoulders as suicide is the cowards way out. My former landlord committed suicide last winter by drinking 500 ml of ammonia. He left his wife and 2 small kids to deal with what he had done. He also left them with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.

I didnt blame myself being depressed on anybody, but I couldnt explain why I felt like that, but I did.
Again I disagree, as yes it may seem like it is a selfish act on the part of the person who commits the act. Unless you have felt suicidal, you dont know the mindset of people suffering from it. I have and I know the one feeling was " My family would be better off without me", and as wrong as that may seem know in the cold light of day, it is how people are in that way.

yes that of course that is an awful awful tragedy to happen to anyone at any time but until the topic of Suicide is made less taboo then it will continue to rise in Males especially. 

[LittleFly]

Heavy topic.

I've been there too, a few times.? Suicidal depression is a whirlpool.? When your in it, you can't see the calm water just a few feet away.? Your attention and thoughts are always on the churning, pulling water that your caught in.? Sure, you can see the truth of the matter, but only when your out of the immediate danger.

I feel that teenagers are most susceptible to suicide becuase they often can't stop and look at the problem from a distance.? They can only see what's happening right now and can't see a way out of it other then death.? That's when I had most of my suicidal issues, at least, and why I had them.

When your out of the depression, it's easy to look back and say "Well, no one else can be responsible for my mood".? It's not easy at all when you've got the knife to your wrist.

[SLCPUNK]

"Noone, with their freedom intact, should ever get to the point of suicide, and if they do, they have only their self to blame."

Depression, and drug abuse coupled with depression can be all consuming and overwhelming. Many, fortunately, will never have to deal with these issues in their life and are unable to fathom it. However, that should be no excuse for being compassionate towards those who feel the crushing weight of this type of pain, enough so that they end their life. If you have not walked a mile in a man's shoes, then it's probably best to not judge, as you have no scope of their pain, be it clinical, or from substance abuse. Many these days also get bogged down with debt, and that too is suffocating emotionally and physically.

I certainly don't think suicide is an answer, but I can understand how it happens. I'm sure as hell not going to speak on behalf of somebody after they have done the deed, eluding to weakness on their part, that would make me an asshole.   

[fuckin crazy]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.

I said it in the other thread, and it needs repeating; Suicide is a manifestation of depression. Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. It is a disease ... a biological condition.

If you, Ali, Slash, or anyone else attemp to "lay blame" for suicide, you are all wrong.

[Irish gunner II]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.

I said it in the other thread, and it needs repeating; Suicide is a manifestation of depression. Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. It is a disease ... a biological condition.
If you, Ali, Slash, or anyone else attemp to "lay blame" for suicide, you are all wrong.

Right for the last time, this has got nothing to do with Axl, Slash or anything about GNR. The comment itself was what got to me not in relation to what it was about.

That is true, but the poster who started all this for some mad reason seems to blame the people with depression and suicide for what they have. It's a biological condition therefore it is not something people choose to get, it comes from within not from outside. Cancer is a biological condition which is caused by certain factors affecting the growth of the cells in our body, it is not something anybody wishes to get, but maybe that's their fault aswell loretian  ? Seeing as you like to blame people for things they for the most part have no control over.

[crazycheryl]

I have been there myself. I still take anti-depressants and I kind of look at it both ways. Yes. You are the only one to blame for suicide but I look at the circumstances surrounding the individual. For instance, a big hurdle that I had to overcome was my negativity and pessimistic view and I blame that on my parents. I certainly didn't come out of the box that way. I used to be very positive and excited by life but when you grow up with parents constantly telling you people are no good, don't trust your friends, don't trust anyone, everyone is out to get you, there are no good people in the world, etc, etc, you kind of develop that mind set even if you don't want to. And yes, I have dealt with this and forgiven but some people don't know to get help and figure out where everything is coming from. When I felt that way, I honestly thought, no one liked me as a friend, I would never get a boyfriend, I won't get a good job, I won't ever have money, and I thought that I deserved whatever bad happened to me. It was very painful internally and I did want to die. My thought  - if the world is so bad, why stay in it? I couldn't see the light or positive. So, people around you, especially during the formative years when you don't know what to think, definitely have an impact on a person's mindset. Whether you let those people rule your own mind is another story. I don't agree that people who commit suicide are driven by themselves. Yes, the suicidal person is to blame because they used their own hand for death but how they got to that point may be caused by more factors not even in their control.


look at young kids who kill themselves because they get beat by their parents, have no money to leave, have really poor self esteem, no one seems to want to hang out with them, and they are uneducated about their feelings and what they should do? Do you think they can really say, oh hell, I'll pull myself out of this situation and be fine? No. They feel they are worthless, probably have parents that validate it and the way the rest of the world acts also validates it. they are tired of being in pain so they want to end it.

Have you ever gotten tired of being mentally strong all the time and wish you could rely on someone else? Imagine being that way all your life with no one to rely on. No one to go to. Death seems like peace.

I'm not trying to defend suicide but just try to give you a glimpse of what might make people consider it. I am not for suicide because I know better but I also don't think people that commit suicide are weak individuals - I think they are people just tired of dealing with whatever causes their pain.

[Mr. Dick Purple]

Right for the last time, this has got nothing to do with Axl, Slash or anything about GNR. The comment itself was what got to me not in relation to what it was about.

That is true, but the poster who started all this for some mad reason seems to blame the people with depression and suicide for what they have. It's a biological condition therefore it is not something people choose to get, it comes from within not from outside. Cancer is a biological condition which is caused by certain factors affecting the growth of the cells in our body, it is not something anybody wishes to get, but maybe that's their fault aswell loretian  ? Seeing as you like to blame people for things they for the most part have no control over.

I've been depressed a few times and tried to end my life when being teenager, but in this case I'm gonna take side with loretian, why? because as you said "it is not something people choose to get", and I agree with you, no one wants to be depressed but if we for some bad reason, luck, fate or whatever the case is get depress, we always have a choice, I tell you this from a person that used to be very deep in depression, to the point of drink every day, and 2 times trying to kill myself with poison.
Is always up to us to change that way of thinking, and of course is the most dificult thing to fight our mind, I'm not saying that is something easy to get through.

[fuckin crazy]

I know it was part of a big long post, but YOU didn't specify and made a sweeping statement that even after a nights sleep, still baffles me how you can say it. And to be honest it shows you have a lack of understanding of the causes of suicide on your part.

Well, enlighten me, please.

I said it in the other thread, and it needs repeating; Suicide is a manifestation of depression. Depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. It is a disease ... a biological condition.
If you, Ali, Slash, or anyone else attemp to "lay blame" for suicide, you are all wrong.

Right for the last time, this has got nothing to do with Axl, Slash or anything about GNR. The comment itself was what got to me not in relation to what it was about.

That is true, but the poster who started all this for some mad reason seems to blame the people with depression and suicide for what they have. It's a biological condition therefore it is not something people choose to get, it comes from within not from outside. Cancer is a biological condition which is caused by certain factors affecting the growth of the cells in our body, it is not something anybody wishes to get, but maybe that's their fault aswell loretian ? Seeing as you like to blame people for things they for the most part have no control over.

Yes, I agree. I was trying to validate your position in the other thread when I mistakenly attributed a quote you that should have been attributed to loretian. Sorry for any confusion.

[loretian]

Look, I really don't want to continue on with this conversation, but my point is not about getting depressed.  It's about how you deal with it once you are depressed.  YOU CAN and SHOULD take care of yourself.  People are born with all sorts of afflictions and problems.  It's not the problem, it's about how you handle the problem.  Whatever causes depression is irrelevant.  I again apologize if I came off wrong, or came off like a smart ass.

In the meantime, check out my other thread    http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=49613.0

[polluxlm]

I believe depression is misunderstood. There is so much talk about chemical imbalances these days one would think humans had started mutating. One little bump in the road and the doctor classifies you as sick? Somehow I don't see that helping anything.

So I see where loretian is coming from. Nobody is to 'blame' since you can't really help your genes, the environment around you and so on. But it is also wrong to feel victimized. That justifies a mindset where you let the depression, doctor, lithium etc. take control over your life. I know people who have been on lithium for 20 years. Still depressed, still immature and running life on auto-pilot. Drugs never help, except in emergencies.

I've been there myself. Second thing they asked me was if I wanted drugs. I said no, quit the psychiatrist and started examining myself, reading books on the subject. Didn't take long for me to get better. I took control, and that is the only way to get rid of the factors that made you depressed in the first place. Force them away yourself.

[Jessica]

sometimes, suicide is sweeter than life

[Axl4Prez2004]

Suicide is rarely the best option...especially with young people.  It's such a waste.   

That said, I'll disagree with the statement because it is an absolute.  It says, "no one."  I'll disagree.