The saddest read in a long time

[GeorgeSteele]

Those two were just fucked up! And they always make the sketch of children wrong. They make it like they have cheekbones but when they are that little, all cheeks are chubby. but the picture is very creepy.


IMO I think it is ok to spank a child if you only spank on the ass and follow up with a hug and tell them you still love them. Any other kind of punishment is taking it too far. I say this only because one of the states is trying to pass a law that will jail parents if they spank their kids. The government is too much into our lives and I have had a cousin with an experience of her kids, just to be mean, calling DCFS on her. She didn't do anything to them but then had to put up with DCFS for years.

I am older and grew up with old school strict Catholic parents who beat my ass with a belt and shoes or whatever they could get their hands on. But honestly, I think I deserved it. It was only when I was really bad. Like showing my pee-pee to my boy cousins and caught by my mother. She didn't want me to grow up to be a stripper. But some kids today could use a lashing. I don't think there is the respect for adults that existed a while back.

It's soooooooooooo different now with raising kids. It's a very hard job for parents.

I don't know about the other guys here, but I just had a horrifying Crying Game moment. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

IMO I think it is ok to spank a child if you only spank on the ass and follow up with a hug and tell them you still love them.

I'm sure that doesn't confuse a child at all.   

 Any other kind of punishment is taking it too far. I say this only because one of the states is trying to pass a law that will jail parents if they spank their kids. The government is too much into our lives and I have had a cousin with an experience of her kids, just to be mean, calling DCFS on her. She didn't do anything to them but then had to put up with DCFS for years.

"She didn't do anything to them," now listen, I don't know your cousin, and I don't mean to sound like a jerk, because I'm not...but well-adjusted kids raised in a stable home don't just flip out and cry bloody murder...(okay, there are children with mental disorders...but that's an exception)

I am older and grew up with old school strict Catholic parents who beat my ass with a belt and shoes or whatever they could get their hands on. But honestly, I think I deserved it.

You mean you had them cornered with a weapon or something and they couldn't get away?  It was self-defense on their part?  No?  Then no, you didn't deserve it.  A good parent teaches their child by example.  Set consequences ahead of time.  A good parent doesn't "fly off the handle" and smack a kid.  It's the quick and easy solution.  It works in the short-term, but fails miserably in the long-run.

It was only when I was really bad. Like showing my pee-pee to my boy cousins and caught by my mother. She didn't want me to grow up to be a stripper. But some kids today could use a lashing. I don't think there is the respect for adults that existed a while back.

"Boy!  I'm gonna learn you some respect!  I'm gonna learn ya goood."  I just don't understand that mind-set.  You'd be hard-pressed to find 10% of experts on the subject promoting corporal punishment.  I guarantee you'd find an overwhelming preponderance of "ass-whoopers" in the ghetto.  Do ya still think it works?

 

It's soooooooooooo different now with raising kids. It's a very hard job for parents.

I'll tell you why it's tougher nowadays.  Because parents appear to be more selfish nowadays.  If I hear the whole, "but what about m-e  t-i-m-e?" one more time I'll puke.  Parenting is a 24/7 job.  If you are not a patient person, don't have children.

Why did I say "appear to be more selfish?," that's because of where we are (at least in the U.S.) compared to 50 years ago.  Most women half a century ago were at home with their children.  Who knows if we'd have seen the same difficulties 50 years ago had the economy forced more women to work.  Today, somewhere between 70 to 80% of black kids today are born to unwed mothers.  Right off the bat, their first lesson in life is one on how to be irresponsible.

I'm getting a little off-track here, but I guess my point here is that we get these tragedies because it's a cycle.  Many folks are cycle-breakers...but far too many keep the cycle going.  Crazycheryl pointed out how a much more mild form of abuse gets passed down from parent to child.  As sick as it sounds, the more heinous abuse/neglect cycle is just as easily passed down from parent to child.   

PS  crazycheryl, I'm not calling you a bad person.  Most folks think spanking's alright.  I don't but oh well.        

[crazycheryl]

Folks, don't get me wrong here. I don't only spank as a form of punishment. It takes a lot to get to that point. I know you guys think I'm an abuser now. Trust me, I'm really not. And I have gone through the whole getting hit thing with a psychologist so I have examined how through generations, abuse gets passed down. I would never, ever, take a belt or an object to one of my kids. And really, I don't spank them now as they are 7 and 4 and understand more the difference between good and bad. I understand what Axl4prez is saying about selfishness because I completely agree. But please don't think I am selfish because I understood when I took on the responsibility of being a parent that it was a 24/7 job. I didn't have kids until later because I realized I would have to give up a lot of things. My kids come #1 in my life. Hell, I shouldn't have told you guys this. And I respect that people don't agree with me. I am not a violent person. I don't fight with people alot. I don't get physical. Now in my youth, I have a few stories but I never started anything and if I had to fight, it was always my last resort. I am opinionated but probably one of the easiest people to get along with.

Do you attribute the behavior of kids these days to selfish parents? Do you think it is only the parents who are selfish who are raising kids with such hate that they bring guns to school and shoot other kids? I attribute it to lack of attention. And parents teaching the child the difference between right and wrong. If you watch Supernanny at all, I just can't believe how many parents that are out there that are clueless. Clueless. And how many parents let their children determine what happens in the home. The kids rule. I know that there is no manual that tells you what to do but most of child rearing is common sense and striving to do good.

And honestly, I spend 95% of my free time with my kids. My husband goes out all the time and I work full time so I think it is important to stay home with the kids. Sometimes, I feel sorry for myself but when I think about the fact that I know what is going on in my children's lives, I talk with them and listen to them, play games with them, cook with them, and all sorts of other things, I realize that my children are getting the attention they need.

Damn, I didn't know telling you I spanked was going to cause a shit storm...

[freedom78]

"She didn't do anything to them," now listen, I don't know your cousin, and I don't mean to sound like a jerk, because I'm not...but well-adjusted kids raised in a stable home don't just flip out and cry bloody murder...(okay, there are children with mental disorders...but that's an exception)

I was babysitting some kids when one told the other to call 911, which he did, resulting in the police coming to the house.  Fortunately, the cop didn't think I had done anything wrong, and so used his time to lecture the children. 

[Jaci_Roxx]

Yeah it's real shitty but how is this going to achieve anything?
Making people feel miserable about something they already hate is helping exactly how?

I mean if there was a link in there where you could donate to a anti-abuse chariy or some such organisation I would get it, but just blankly saying something that everyone knows like "CHILD ABUSE IS WRONG" well my natural reaction is ...? DERR!

Maybe the poem serves as a reminder? It's pretty damn easy to forget what's going on outside of our own lives if no-one is there to remind you of that every now and then. It's easier to forget than to think about those horrible things, and you don't do it on purpose, it's a bit like a self defence mechanism.

Maybe you can find a website by yourself IF you want to help?  I'm sure someone who reads that poem will. Even if it's just one person. It's better than nothing at all.

[GeorgeSteele]

Prez, I'm not a huge fan of spanking either, but I tend to think the effects of doing so or not tend to get exaggerated.  Assuming that spanking/corporal punishment was far more common 100 years ago (not certain of that, but it sure appears that way), is there anything to suggest we now live in a less violent society? 

I mean, if violence breeds violence, then non-violence should breed non-violence.  But let's face it, the "time-out" generation isn't exactly gathering daily singing kumbaya.

[SLCPUNK]

I mean, if violence breeds violence, then non-violence should breed non-violence.  But let's face it, the "time-out" generation isn't exactly gathering daily singing kumbaya.

Ha!

Good point.

I used spanking as a last resort and never felt bad about it. It sent the message home quick.

[freedom78]

I mean, if violence breeds violence, then non-violence should breed non-violence.  But let's face it, the "time-out" generation isn't exactly gathering daily singing kumbaya.

That's for damn sure...in truth, the "time out" generation is, generally, very VERY disrespectful.  I'm 29 years old, and as a grad student have taught some college courses to people that are 7-10 years younger than me, and I can't believe the shit they pull and the extent to which they're completely disrespectful of their professors. 

When I was in college, it was encouraged to debate issues and to voice your opinion, but these kids are just assholes a lot of the time.  I kind of wish I could pull a paddle out of my bag and beat some asses! 

Anyway, I don't know whether they were or were not spanked or sent to "time out," but people my age have seen the "time out" generation, and probably won't raise our kids in similar fashion.  Whether our kids will be the "black n' blue" generation...I doubt it.  But time out is ridiculous.

[Axl4Prez2004]

CrazyCheryl!  Nice statement here...actually, it's awesome.     :

"I attribute it to lack of attention. And parents teaching the child the difference between right and wrong. If you watch Supernanny at all, I just can't believe how many parents that are out there that are clueless. Clueless. And how many parents let their children determine what happens in the home. The kids rule. I know that there is no manual that tells you what to do but most of child rearing is common sense and striving to do good."

Yes, absolutely.  I also agree with green-tongued one as well...that would be George The Animal Steele (my friend had your wrestling doll when I was growing up.  ).  It's not thee deciding factor in the vast majority of cases.  Spanking that is.
Neglect and a lack of respect for the child in my eyes breeds lack of respect in children.  When kids are 2, 3, and 4 they watch how the parents interact with strangers, hosts, clerks, etc.  They are quite remarkable sponges.  Positive reinforcement early-on leads to habits that become 2nd nature.  How f'ing hard is it to say please and thank you and be respectful of other peoples' possessions?  Good parents re-direct, they take the time to explain what's right and wrong...I guess spanking could be incorporated into that, but it's not my bag and I don't think the experts recommend it, that's all.  The lazy f's just lose their patience, raise their voice and threaten, then smack.

Nice posts folks. 

Freedom, the "time out" generation may actually be named for the amount of time parents are "out" of the house away from their kids.  It's more like the "absentee parent" generation" in my eyes.   

[freedom78]

Freedom, the "time out" generation may actually be named for the amount of time parents are "out" of the house away from their kids.  It's more like the "absentee parent" generation" in my eyes.   

Quite likely.  I don't blame people for the ways they were raised...and involved parenting is critical, as some, sadly, are being forced to learn.

[GeorgeSteele]

...that would be George The Animal Steele (my friend had your wrestling doll when I was growing up.? ).?

Now that kid must have been a train wreck.?

[Axl4Prez2004]

I haven't seen him since I was in high school, but I've heard he still can't go near turnbuckles.   

I worked with a dude who claimed to be a wrestler.  He said Steele was actually a very intelligent guy.  He was a great character back in the day.  I don't think he's still alive.  WWF wrestlers don't have very long life expectancies...go figure!

On topic, hell, I get sad when I hear kids aren't read to and/or reading books every day.  You can guess how insane I get when I hear about kids who aren't fed or bathed.  Forget "ethnic cleansing," if I had power I'd cleanse the world of unfit parents.  "Deadbeat cleansing," yup. 

How expensive can a simple paternity test be for every birth?  I'd require it by law at every birth.  I think it could help cut down on deadbeat dads.  Plus, the government would be wise to penalize deadbeat dads with added interest/prison time/and-or revoking welfare benefits or docking tax returns, etc.

[Jessica]

Just a word on the so called experts :

Every 20 years, a new generation of pedopsychiatrists contradicts the previous one or tally disagrees even.

I think most of us know what's right and wrong.

The difference between needed " physical punishement" and sadism is simple :

A normal parent feels like shit after giving a smack.
A sadist enjoyed it.

Full stop.

[Jessica]

How expensive can a simple paternity test be for every birth??

About 200 euros for a simple one.

[Axl4Prez2004]

If it's only about $200 to make a clear determination from the second that kid pops out the father that is responsible, it's worth it.

Now, Jessica, my next question, an obvious one, is that you pointed out the "normal" parent feels like shit after they smack the kid, but the sadist enjoys it.....why feel bad at all?  why promote physical violence when there are better alternatives?
The kid acts up in public?  Have a discussion.  Leave.  Ask yourself, "Did I really plan this well?  Did I bring the child out when it might be close to nap time?  Am I staying here because I want to be here or the child wants to be here?  Have I been allowing the child to get unruly?"  A lot of parents let things slide, warn, let things slide, threaten, let things slide and slide...until whammO!  The good parent addresses the misbehavior immediately.

That said, CrazyCheryl mentioned SuperNanny, and it cracks me up.  I see a British nanny, I think about how British nannies probably raised the royal kids...they helped create Harry!  (if you haven't heard, he's a bit of a handful)   

btw, what's full stop mean?

[Jessica]

Well, why does a normal parent feel like shit ?

Because of G U I L T.

For example, there is that " two year old" phase and it's a pain the arse, Gaby turns two next tuesday, he is right into it.
It's no no no to everything, pushing parents to the limits, throwing himself on the floor into huge tantrums, and screaming all the bloody time.

But there is a limit ( this is personal) to what i can endure, so with me, it's the " Gabriel, stop it now, i do the 1-2-3, if you haven't stopped at 3, it's the corner".

 I put him in the corner standing up for 5 mn. If he doesn't stop, i try to take in, but at some point and i always warn Gaby i am reaching it, it's me being totally pissed off and he has a spank on the bum.

Thank God he is learning fast, because he's been like this for 3/4 months now and i am very tired.

I spend all day long with him and trust me, i did work outside in july and it felt like holidays compared to staying home 24/24 with a kid.

Apart from this, i don't let things slide, especially since i am quick tempered anyway and gaby knows it now.

He is very good with people from outside our home, says bye bye and thank you and even " pardon me" when he walks and has someone in front of him.

He is just being a pain right now but as i said, it's THE two year old phase of the " no".

********************************************************
I think you are being unfair on Harry, he lost his mother as he was crossing from childhood into teens.
It's a very difficult time for normal kids from average socio-economical backgrounds, with parents still married.

Harry's parents divorced at a very crucial time in his life and he lost his mother at another.

It has created what shrinks call emotionnal gaps.
Harry in is need of deep therapy.

Don't blame it on Tiggy Leggy Daft, she was never their mother, and Di fought to keep her influence on both her sons.

Plus, may i add something that's utterly personal yet again :

I am cancerian like Wills and Harry is a virgo, like my younger brother.

Harry reminds me of Alexander, my brother.

Too much booze, too much hash, too many women, very ambitious, very critical probably, and yet, very insecure and sensitive.
A mum's boy. Problem is, there is no mum left.
*******************************

Full stop is just a silly expression of mine..don't worry.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Well, why does a normal parent feel like shit ?

Because of G U I L T.

For example, there is that " two year old" phase and it's a pain the arse, Gaby turns two next tuesday, he is right into it.
It's no no no to everything, pushing parents to the limits, throwing himself on the floor into huge tantrums, and screaming all the bloody time.

But there is a limit ( this is personal) to what i can endure, so with me, it's the " Gabriel, stop it now, i do the 1-2-3, if you haven't stopped at 3, it's the corner".

 I put him in the corner standing up for 5 mn. If he doesn't stop, i try to take in, but at some point and i always warn Gaby i am reaching it, it's me being totally pissed off and he has a spank on the bum.

Thank God he is learning fast, because he's been like this for 3/4 months now and i am very tired.

I spend all day long with him and trust me, i did work outside in july and it felt like holidays compared to staying home 24/24 with a kid.

Apart from this, i don't let things slide, especially since i am quick tempered anyway and gaby knows it now.

He is very good with people from outside our home, says bye bye and thank you and even " pardon me" when he walks and has someone in front of him.

He is just being a pain right now but as i said, it's THE two year old phase of the " no".

********************************************************
I think you are being unfair on Harry, he lost his mother as he was crossing from childhood into teens.
It's a very difficult time for normal kids from average socio-economical backgrounds, with parents still married.

Harry's parents divorced at a very crucial time in his life and he lost his mother at another.

It has created what shrinks call emotionnal gaps.
Harry in is need of deep therapy.

Don't blame it on Tiggy Leggy Daft, she was never their mother, and Di fought to keep her influence on both her sons.

Plus, may i add something that's utterly personal yet again :

I am cancerian like Wills and Harry is a virgo, like my younger brother.

Harry reminds me of Alexander, my brother.

Too much booze, too much hash, too many women, very ambitious, very critical probably, and yet, very insecure and sensitive.
A mum's boy. Problem is, there is no mum left.
*******************************

Full stop is just a silly expression of mine..don't worry.

Hey, it's just me, I just don't see the need to strike a 2 year old.  I'd feel guilty too if I hit a kid though, so yeah, guilt. 

Plus, 5 minutes in a corner, I guarantee you at that age that kid has no clue why the heck they're in the corner after that long.

Tantrums continue because the kids get something out of them.  Unfortunately, you may have a longer stretch of them to deal with.  Kids test limits, and if ya have to go to the "big deterrent" enough, it loses its effectiveness.

Yeah, I'm a smart-ass, I'm sorry...at least I know myself.    That quick-tempered nature of yours can be worked out if you want to change. 

btw, of course kids say "no" at that age.  That's where you have to skillfully deal with them.  It's not giving in, it's negotiating in a way.  An adult can always outsmart a 2 year old.  Giving in to the quick results of a smack is tempting, but probably not the best alternative.

With Harry, to be honest, I know nothing about the kid other than what I see or hear in the media.  I just think of him when I see the nannies doing their good jobs on supernanny.  (i'm fairly certain they don't hit kids either, so in essence, Harry's behavior might bolster the spanking supporters' argument) 

Just sayin'   

[Jessica]

Actually, i am sorry to say that, but Gabriel is way cleverer than his mother.

Gabriel is the most logical person i have ever met, he is incredibly intelligent and the doctor who gave birth to him said that day that he had surprised him.

Everyone, since his birth, notices how smart he is.

And this is why he is using me to the bone, he is amazing, but very very tiring.

I have put him on creative things, that seems to calm him down, and he also has musical instruments and puzzles.
He draws a lot too.

And he loves books.

You know AFP, i had post partum and i am only starting to feel better.

No one ever mentions it, but a lot of young mothers are extremely depressed by the birth and the drop in hormones.

It takes about two years to come out of it.

Patience wears thin when you are not that well.

Which is why i sympathise with brit brit btw.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Sorry about the post-partum Jessica, I hear that can be terrible.  I'm glad you are better.

I still think you are smarter than your son though.  The next time he stomps and does a "no, no, no!" turn it into a funny moment.  make a funny voice that mimics him, "no, no, no-na-no-no!" or something smiling.  He'll smile, forget the silliness and move on.  Defusing the situation is an art-form that works well with adults as well (obviously it's a little more involved) but I'm sure you can do it.   

Good luck Jessica.   

[Jessica]

Sorry about the post-partum Jessica, I hear that can be terrible.? I'm glad you are better.

I still think you are smarter than your son though.? The next time he stomps and does a "no, no, no!" turn it into a funny moment.? make a funny voice that mimics him, "no, no, no-na-no-no!" or something smiling.? He'll smile, forget the silliness and move on.? Defusing the situation is an art-form that works well with adults as well (obviously it's a little more involved) but I'm sure you can do it.? ?

Good luck Jessica.? ?

Thank you sweetie, i'll try and tell you how that works, because i seem to have lost my sense of humor some 8 years ago now..it needs a little remembering i guess..