Baz "axl is getting ready to put out chinese democracy"

[ppbebe]

if this no-vocals-version would have been played to you first without knowing the vocal version i would bet about 99,9% gnr fans would have skipped it and rated it kinda "school band"/"garage band"-crap.

you must have meant  'the real fans' by gnr fans.

[mrbucketfoot]

IRS is a more surfacy and accessable song compared to others, especially "There Was A Time".

However, fact remains, what we heard were demos. What we heard on tour was much more densely layered, organic, and raw. Take for example the IRS performance at Rock am Ring or one of the new ones like the Budokan. The song was much stronger and had a great feeling to it, even if it still is a more surfacy/accessable type song. And I'm not mentioning Tommy's really cool Krist Novoselic-esque bass line. So don't judge too hastily on the demos Limmy. But you're free to your opinion. 

So, Limulus, I know what you're talking about, but at the same time I disagree. The beginning riff is piercing and great. And the way the note is held (it's hard to explain, but the duwwrrrwrrrrr) is really awesome. Both IRS and Better have great hooks, imo, even if they lack the complexity of "There Was A Time" or "Madagascar".

[Voodoochild]

Madagascar is complex with all that layers, but the structure is kinda simple (same with IRS).

But talking about IRS, since that awful radio recording of the Trunk's show, I always loved the guitar work on the calm intersections. Robin's slides gave the song a really modern sound.

And mrbucketfoot, I strongly disagree with Better lacking complexity. If one thing, its far more complex than TWAT (structure, layers, tempo and tone changes).

[chriskon72]

I really like all the new songs...but IRS doesn't do much for me, I just don't think it is such a great song, it has been that way since I first heard it. To me it lacks that one thing to push it over the edge. Maybe it is kick ass live unfortunatley but I haven't had the chance to see GNR live since '93. So get your asses to South America and prove me wrong

[mrbucketfoot]

It's not that it lacks complexity, it's just more mainstream. The riff is really simple (yet awesome) and then it does get more complex during the breakdown (which I love... the drums there are incredible and coupled with the Pitman 'metldown', oh lawd it's a sassy song).

[Voodoochild]

I wouldn't say its simple.. Maybe it gives you this impression because its basically the same melody as the vocals, but Axl wrote the lyrics AFTER the instrumental, as he said himself on one of the Hammerstein gigs. Also, once you learn how to play the riff, you see it's far from simple and obvious as it deals with harmonics and distortion using two strings notes. 

What IRS lacks in varied lyrics, it deff makes up in other areas. It's possibly the most finished sounding track from CD (that we've heard already).

Are you talking about the demo(s) or the live version?

From what I heard on all demos, the '99 version was the one who was closer to a finished sound IMO. The quality of the recording is bad, but I think the mix was alright and it leads to a finished intention.

Also, using a good headphones (I mean really good, not one of those cheap-ass sets) makes the 2007 demos and live bootlegs sounding HUGE.

[ppbebe]

baz loves IRS doesn't he? (sorta back to the topic.... )
chriskon you should check some boots of the last tour...altho seeing is believing and no recording would come close to a real live experience.

axl mentions the snakepit album in RS 1999 interview.

"Loder: Do you think that stuff can be done in that old sort of [GN'R] style, that blues-based style, or do you think that's just over?
Rose: No, no, I don't think any style of music's over. I mean, look at [Lou Bega's] "Mambo #5."
Loder: True.
Rose: You could find ways to blend all kind of things. It really just takes the right song. I don't personally believe that was the interest of Guns or Slash, I don't believe the right song was the interest. I mean, what people don't know is, the [Slash's] Snakepit album, that is the Guns N' Roses album. I just wouldn't do it.
Loder: Really?
Rose: Oh, yeah! Duff walked out on it, and I walked out on it, because I wasn't allowed to be any part of it. It's like, "No, you do this, that's how it is." And I didn't believe in it. I thought that there were riffs and parts and some ideas, I thought, that needed to be developed. I had no problem working on it, or working with it, but you know, as is, I think I'm with the public on that one."

donno about this album but I personally take an instrumental GNR demo over any VR song with or without vocals at anytime. I wonder what the real fans would say about, if any, non vocal version of rocket queen or WTTJ.

[SpiritDave]

I wonder what the real fans would say about, if any, non vocal version of rocket queen or WTTJ.

Considering part of the main pull for those tunes is the incredible riffs etc ... I'd say they'd like them.  I love the new GnR songs but none of them have memorable riffs comparable to Jungle or Rocket Queen ...

[Wicked Demon]

I wonder what the real fans would say about, if any, non vocal version of rocket queen or WTTJ.

Considering part of the main pull for those tunes is the incredible riffs etc ... I'd say they'd like them.  I love the new GnR songs but none of them have memorable riffs comparable to Jungle or Rocket Queen ...

Agreed... Jungle and Rocket Queen both have incredible grooves that I haven't heard from a new song yet... well, maybe Chinese Democracy. And the vocal/guitar "duet" verses on TWAT is something unique in itself that I like just as much as a good running groove.

You can listen to a couple measures of WTTJ and know immediately what it is based on that groove. Same with the first half of Rocket Queen. But listen to a couple measures of Better, Madagascar, or IRS and it is a struggle to tell them apart (ok, maybe not for any of us here). That isn't bad necessarily.... thanks particularly to the vocal mix, and on a large start-to-end thing they accomplish a whole lot, but it doesn't have that groove...

[Ali]

I wonder what the real fans would say about, if any, non vocal version of rocket queen or WTTJ.

Considering part of the main pull for those tunes is the incredible riffs etc ... I'd say they'd like them.  I love the new GnR songs but none of them have memorable riffs comparable to Jungle or Rocket Queen ...

Agreed... Jungle and Rocket Queen both have incredible grooves that I haven't heard from a new song yet... well, maybe Chinese Democracy. And the vocal/guitar "duet" verses on TWAT is something unique in itself that I like just as much as a good running groove.

You can listen to a couple measures of WTTJ and know immediately what it is based on that groove. Same with the first half of Rocket Queen. But listen to a couple measures of Better, Madagascar, or IRS and it is a struggle to tell them apart (ok, maybe not for any of us here). That isn't bad necessarily.... thanks particularly to the vocal mix, and on a large start-to-end thing they accomplish a whole lot, but it doesn't have that groove...

I disagree completely.  For one thing, most of the new songs we've heard are ballads, and piano/synthesizer driven ones at that, so they aren't by nature going to be guitar riff-driven like a song off Appetite.  Despite that, I can listen to one measure of "Better" or "Chinese Democracy" and know exactly what it is as much as I can with any other GN'R song.  I could right away.  Another thing is that these new songs are not in the same blues-based vein as the old material.  The new material embraces different influences, and while it's still melodic hard rock, it's not an apples to apples comparison with the old material.

Ali

[Wicked Demon]

I disagree completely.

You disagree, and go on to further my point?

ok, not quite. But what you are saying is similar to what I was thinking. A lot of UYI doesn't have those AFD guitar grooves, either... but I like it all the same.

TWAT "Yes, that is GNR for sure"
Better "WTF was that insanity? GNR? Sweet!"

The blues-driven stuff is what I personally identify GNR with, and I would prefer that to be the core. I certainly don't mind excursions into other territory... that is what I like about UYI.

What you said is tru... a lot of what we have heard are ballads... I hope / expect that there is a lot more than that!

[CaughtMeInaComa]

"Better" is the best new song BY FAR! The live version isn't that great. I dont like it. But the actual leaked song blows me away. If that's BucketHead on lead guitar on that song, He's awsome. "IRS" & "TWAT" are just ok , not epic in any way. I'm looking forward to hearing all the songs as a Whole, If it ever comes out........who knows?

[Naupis]

Funny how you decide to leave out the mention where Axl said Slash didn't wanna work harder... So, it's not really possible to change the songs too much if the other person isn't into changing them. 


But CD has nothing to do with Slash. 


There are people in the band who aren't afraid to work hard and experiment.






/jarmo

In the interests of full disclosure I present the following:

According to Axl (in a direct reference to Slash's work habits), and I quote verbatim, "I think it is time for the resident workaholic to strut his Les Paul. Caught off guard but always ready, ladies and gentlemen Mr. Slash" as he introduced him at Rock in Rio 1. Coming directly from Axl's lips in an unsolicited manner like that would seem to indicate lack of drive and work ethic are not a problem he experienced with Slash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpeWI8pyuKc


How can someone be both the band's "resident workaholic" and the "band member who didn't want to work hard" in the eyes of the very same person who is responsible for both comments?

[Jim Bob]

Funny how you decide to leave out the mention where Axl said Slash didn't wanna work harder... So, it's not really possible to change the songs too much if the other person isn't into changing them. 


But CD has nothing to do with Slash. 


There are people in the band who aren't afraid to work hard and experiment.






/jarmo

In the interests of full disclosure I present the following:

According to Axl (in a direct reference to Slash's work habits), and I quote verbatim, "I think it is time for the resident workaholic to strut his Les Paul. Caught off guard but always ready, ladies and gentlemen Mr. Slash" as he introduced him at Rock in Rio 1. Coming directly from Axl's lips in an unsolicited manner like that would seem to indicate lack of drive and work ethic are not a problem he experienced with Slash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpeWI8pyuKc


How can someone be both the band's "resident workaholic" and the "band member who didn't want to work hard" in the eyes of the very same person who is responsible for both comments?

4 years can do a lot to a person.    stating the obvious, I know.. but when you wear the slash blinders and ask stupid questions, expect a stupid answer.

[gunns1]

Funny how you decide to leave out the mention where Axl said Slash didn't wanna work harder... So, it's not really possible to change the songs too much if the other person isn't into changing them. 


But CD has nothing to do with Slash. 


There are people in the band who aren't afraid to work hard and experiment.






/jarmo

In the interests of full disclosure I present the following:

According to Axl (in a direct reference to Slash's work habits), and I quote verbatim, "I think it is time for the resident workaholic to strut his Les Paul. Caught off guard but always ready, ladies and gentlemen Mr. Slash" as he introduced him at Rock in Rio 1. Coming directly from Axl's lips in an unsolicited manner like that would seem to indicate lack of drive and work ethic are not a problem he experienced with Slash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpeWI8pyuKc


How can someone be both the band's "resident workaholic" and the "band member who didn't want to work hard" in the eyes of the very same person who is responsible for both comments?

4 years can do a lot to a person.    stating the obvious, I know.. but when you wear the slash blinders and ask stupid questions, expect a stupid answer.

Jim Bob a few people here should really read your signature and then make the choice of whether to post on this forum or not...
it would filter out alot of pointless and crap arguments...

[Naupis]

4 years can do a lot to a person.    stating the obvious, I know.. but when you wear the slash blinders and ask stupid questions, expect a stupid answer.

It has nothing to do with Slash blinders. I am just pointing out that Slash being lazy probably was about the best talking point Axl could come up with at the time to explain his departure. There were much bigger issues between the 2 than that, but at least it was a plausible scenario to run with given the hoard of media coverage it was getting at the time.

Look at what Axl said about Robin after he left the first time in the Loder interview, "Rose: [continuing] ... but at the same time, it's turned out to be a good thing. We've been able to push some of the guitar parts a step farther, that had he been here, it's not something that would have been considered, and I wouldn't have been rude enough to attempt to do that. Robin did a great job, but we've been able to up the ante a little bit."

Now much like the Slash situation when he left, Axl has to keep the public face that it isn't really a big deal. He in no uncertain terms labeled Finck a mediocre guitarist who couldn't get to that higher level. Just like Slash wasn't working to get to that next level. The "taking the recording to the next level" argument was levied against Bucket when he left to.

The premise of my point has zero to do with Slash. It has to do with the "if Axl said it, it is 100% true to the letter." Sometimes a little reading through the lines is required, even though that is frowned upon in some circles.

Axl and Slash split up because they were no longer compatible for whatever reason, not over his refusal to work on an album. That may have been the story the PR guys decided to go with to explain it, but I have a bridge to sell anyone who believes that was really the cause of the great schism.

I would hope that for the sake of consistensy at least the same group that use the "lazyness" credo in regard to Slash because Axl said so are as steadfast to remind others that Robin is a mediocre and limited player that was holding the guitars back according to Axl. He made that comment to.

The important thing to take away from these examples is that Axl is worried about making numero uno look good, which is what all people do. That also means he is not above exaggerating or embellishing if it acheives whatever the goal is the way he did in diminshing the effect losing Slash,Robin, Bucket would have on GNR when it came time to talk about them in the press.

See Jim Bob, questioning Axl's version of events does not automatically constitute "Slash blinders". He did the same thing to Robin as I layed out, so I guess I have Finck blinders to. I guess that also means I am wearing a KFC bucket now because Bucket was given the same sermon as those 2 in terms of how they were holding Axl back from the next level.

What I established is not Slash blinders but a familiar pattern of events upon the departure of GNR lead guitarists, and that to project Axl's rational on to Slash as though it were fact would require doing the same to Robin; yet somehow I don't think we will be seeing posts every other day talking about how his playing has really held back the band as Axl claimed.

[Jim Bob]

jesus.. was that really worth writing a fucking book?  i don't come here to read long essays dude.    you make a lot of assumptions and speculation.    clueless.

[Limulus]

Jim Bob: that "book" owned you. as simple as that! good read, thanks!

[Olorin]

4 years can do a lot to a person.    stating the obvious, I know.. but when you wear the slash blinders and ask stupid questions, expect a stupid answer.

It has nothing to do with Slash blinders. I am just pointing out that Slash being lazy probably was about the best talking point Axl could come up with at the time to explain his departure. There were much bigger issues between the 2 than that, but at least it was a plausible scenario to run with given the hoard of media coverage it was getting at the time.

Look at what Axl said about Robin after he left the first time in the Loder interview, "Rose: [continuing] ... but at the same time, it's turned out to be a good thing. We've been able to push some of the guitar parts a step farther, that had he been here, it's not something that would have been considered, and I wouldn't have been rude enough to attempt to do that. Robin did a great job, but we've been able to up the ante a little bit."

Now much like the Slash situation when he left, Axl has to keep the public face that it isn't really a big deal. He in no uncertain terms labeled Finck a mediocre guitarist who couldn't get to that higher level. Just like Slash wasn't working to get to that next level. The "taking the recording to the next level" argument was levied against Bucket when he left to.

The premise of my point has zero to do with Slash. It has to do with the "if Axl said it, it is 100% true to the letter." Sometimes a little reading through the lines is required, even though that is frowned upon in some circles.

Axl and Slash split up because they were no longer compatible for whatever reason, not over his refusal to work on an album. That may have been the story the PR guys decided to go with to explain it, but I have a bridge to sell anyone who believes that was really the cause of the great schism.

I would hope that for the sake of consistensy at least the same group that use the "lazyness" credo in regard to Slash because Axl said so are as steadfast to remind others that Robin is a mediocre and limited player that was holding the guitars back according to Axl. He made that comment to.

The important thing to take away from these examples is that Axl is worried about making numero uno look good, which is what all people do. That also means he is not above exaggerating or embellishing if it acheives whatever the goal is the way he did in diminshing the effect losing Slash,Robin, Bucket would have on GNR when it came time to talk about them in the press.

See Jim Bob, questioning Axl's version of events does not automatically constitute "Slash blinders". He did the same thing to Robin as I layed out, so I guess I have Finck blinders to. I guess that also means I am wearing a KFC bucket now because Bucket was given the same sermon as those 2 in terms of how they were holding Axl back from the next level.

What I established is not Slash blinders but a familiar pattern of events upon the departure of GNR lead guitarists, and that to project Axl's rational on to Slash as though it were fact would require doing the same to Robin; yet somehow I don't think we will be seeing posts every other day talking about how his playing has really held back the band as Axl claimed.

Nice post. I like to come hear to read well written, thoughtful comments. It doesnt matter to me if they are a mighty 10 paragraphs long "book".
I don't come to read  inane mutterings from illiterate hillbillys.

[jarmo]

Axl and Slash split up because they were no longer compatible for whatever reason, not over his refusal to work on an album. That may have been the story the PR guys decided to go with to explain it, but I have a bridge to sell anyone who believes that was really the cause of the great schism.

You really shouldn't post things you have no first hand information about as facts.

That's your theory. Not a fact.

As far as I can tell, the only thing you proved was that Axl wouldn't do certain things to his current lead guitarists. Like disrespect them. So when they left, he got an opportunity to try something different without disrespecting them.

It's like having a great goalie in your team, but then you just decide to try the new one while the ordinary one is playing the season of his life instead of bringing in the new one after the old one has been traded away/retired.


As I said, this has nothing to do with Slash.






/jarmo