Parenting

[Axl4Prez2004]

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

not always...but usually.  
and 100% is obviosuly way too high.  I feel bad for parents who "try" but just don't know how to parent in the best manner possible.  I feel worse for the kids.

D, btw, nobody here is saying a doctor is necessarily better than a bag boy.  Is that the child's dream?  If being a bag boy is their vision of happiness, go for it!!!  I'd take a motivated law-abiding bag boy over a depressed and miserable doctor any day.

[JMack]

JMack, I don't remember seeing anybody advocating planning out a child's path and/or expecting them to follow it.
Parenting's all about creating an environment that allows the child to create their own path.

Oh Just go to your room and think about what you just said!  Did I really say that your kids will follow your plan's for them? No! It's impossible,  It can't be done, I've tried it and it doesn't work as planned, however if you let them learn by mistakes just as we have then you can be better prepared to guide them and support them as well.  I said you try and lead your children in the best way possible.  It's trial by error, hopefully not a serious error.  You can do everything right and your kids could go down a different path.  One that I call the wrong path or whatever Sponge Bob said in one episode.  Don't take everything so literally either or choose or not to choose my way of parenting either because it may not be right for either one of us.  I'm serious stay in your room until you have thought this through.  At least 5 minutes.  All kidding aside, it is that no one is perfect and all things come into play.  Parenting, genetics, social atmosphere and the fortitude of the child to do the right thing.

[Albert S Miller]

Big mistake I think. Coddle the child like that and you'll soon have a 28 yr old living in your basement posting on GnR message boards all day.  Even worse they could grow up to be a miserable 48 year old with about twenty online aliases who makes pseudo threats with pretend lawyers...but I digress.

I had gone real easy on my yute and told her I was willing to accept light chores and good grades as a form of rent. She slacked over and over on the chores so now I charge her the water bill. If she doesn't pay me that she can hit the road. I will not accommodate laziness or contribute to a sense of entitlement. Work hard or gtfo.

I did not want my children to have jobs away from home, because one I did not want work to get in the way of school, and two I wanted them to be kids while they had the chance to do so, as it is they grow up so fast. Chores around the house however, were the way they earned their spending money and it taught them the value of the mighty dollar.  As far as kicking them out, not me so much, we will support both here in our home with no financial expectations until they have fullfilled their educations.  As it is the same today, I could still go home to my parents if need be and the door will always be open to them.  So different parenting can be.

If I allow my kid to blow off contributing to the house, and then blow of paying a minuscule amount of rent, then what am I teaching her? I had zero financial expectations until she failed to live up to her end of the bargain. My original offer was to stay at home until she achieved her goals with school. Her "rent" was helping out around the house, and that was it. I must have given her half a dozen chances before I said "OK, you're paying the water bill, and are still required to do chores in order to stay here." We're talking about fifteen minutes of stuff a day here.

I understand what you are saying, but imo I am sending the wrong message if I allow a young adult to do whatever they want in my house and refuse to contribute. If she chooses the hard way, then she can join the millions of other kids who work, go to school, and pay rent. I have no problem with that.

SCLPUNK I am in no way judging you in regards to this, or anyone for that matter, it is just interesting how differently we all parent. As I said earlier, my kids did work in the house to earn their extras, it did teach them the value of money...we live a fairly well to do life style, but did not raise them as spoiled brats who were given everything they wished for.  My husband and I had to work hard for the goals we have achieved, it did not come to us on a silver platter, we earned it, and have taught them the same values, yet we have and do provide all the tools in regard to their education and the preparation for their next step in life.

[Axl4Prez2004]

^ All right, I served my time in time-out dad.  Now that I thought about it, I stick strong to my conviction that the biggest cause of shitty kids is shitty parents.  And yes, there are universally agreed-upon shitty parenting acts.  Abuse and neglect are at the top of the list.  I'm sure you'd agree JMack that parents that aren't unified in dealing with consequences for less than stellar behavior are not utilizing the best parenting technique, right?

There really are common-sense things that a lot of parents don't do.  You don't need me to tell you a lot of folks out there don't have common sense...and I'm sure you'd agree that doesn't help kids.

[kmorgan]

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

Wow, TAP, we agree on this one.  I find this all very interesting since I have my own kids, and I deal with other peoples' kids all day.  I have seen kids with "good parents" go horribly wrong, and those with "bad parents" fight their way to better things.  Some outside source has something to do with both instances.  I had great parents that tried to do everything right, but there was just something in me that made me do things I shouldn't.  It was in no way a representation of my parents.  If you see a kid doing something that is outright wrong, and the parents are sitting there doing nothing, then that's when you can place blame on the parent, but sometimes, kids will just be kids.  (At the same time, though, I feel like the things they taught me about respecting myself and others did have something to do with the fact that I eventually ended up with a pretty good head on my shoulders, so you gotta give them credit there.)  I hate when "good" parents are made to feel like it's their fault when their kid screws up.  I try to tell my kids and my students that THEY have a brain, and THEY make their decisions, which means that ultimately, THEY will have to deal with the consequences.  It seems like today though, fewer parents make the kids do just that.  It's like the poster that said the kid's mom wanted to fill out all of his paperwork for him.  It's amazing how many of my students' parents do that kind of thing for them, and it drives me NUTS.  These people think they are doing good for their child.  These are the "involved" parents who are really screwing up their kids just as bad as the uninvolved ones.  This is why I have students that act like I'm the one with the problem if they didn't bring paper and a pen to class.  But, as was said, these kids graduate.  I sat in my principal's office today and explained why I didn't think a student with almost 40 absences in one nine-week grading period should graduate.  The response was, "Well, we don't want them here next year."  Instead of making the kid deal with the consequences, she will be allowed to graduate and either 1. go through life thinking she never has to work for anything, or 2. graduate being totally unprepared for what's about to slap her in the face.  Either way, we have failed this kid.  We have either parents that are too afraid to let their kids fail, parents that don't care if their kids fail, or an environment that is too lazy to make a kid do what they should to not fail.  INSANITY.

[Bandita]

^^^^

what she said.

[D]

I think spoiling a child is the worst thing you can do. Giving them a sense of entitlement is cause for disaster. I think it is important to teach kids how to deal with disappointment. Parents have that instinct to want their child to never feel any sadness or pain, but little league gives trophies to everybody now......... WHAT?  Learning how to lose and dealing with it is huge, going to the store and not getting a toy is huge, not getting to do whatever u want when u want is huge.

I've seen so many parents where the child runs the house and it is just sad and people think they are being great parents but in reality they are just stunting their growth and limiting their coping ability.

[TAP]

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

not always...but usually.  
and 100% is obviosuly way too high.  I feel bad for parents who "try" but just don't know how to parent in the best manner possible.  I feel worse for the kids.

Wow, that's mighty arrogant if you are saying what I think you are saying. You referred to your 'little ones' so I assume they aren't teenagers? Let's wait and see how that goes.  .....personally my 5 year old daughter has been her own little person since birth, she's full of surprises (usually good, not alway ) and is certainly not 'moldable' clay. I wouldn't want her to be.

A few more points, most of this is distilled from serious scientific study, not stuff I'm making up.

1. Parent's genes (partially) determine how they parent and how the the kids with their inherited genes (partially) respond - and by definition this comes under genetics and not environment.

2. It's really quite meaningless to quantify how much genetics and how much environment determine kid's behaviour (I've fallen into this trap too), you really have to and can quantify differences instead. That's why the best studies investigate twins/siblings separated at birth and non-blood related kids who grow up together. And these studies show that genes and unique environment (the quality of the environment) each account for around 50% of the differences but shared environment accounts for very little.

That's kind of hard to get your head around perhaps - basically it's saying that identical twins especially, but also blood related siblings growing up together will likely (not always, it's probability) respond similarly to parenting but this is due to shared genes and the style of individual parenting (no one treats their kids identically)  and environment (which is not just the home). But just living in the same house has very little additional effect. So identical twins separated at birth are more likely to have similar values/behaviour than non-related kids who grow up together.

3. Environment is not just parenting, peer socialization is also there and likely much more significant. My daughter is already at school for 6 hours/day which is more waking hours than I see her and that won't ever change. She is fluent in English and Turkish, she speaks English with a Brooklyn accent which is nothing like my English accent, but she speaks Turkish with a Turkish accent picked up from her mother/family/family friends. Some people are lucky enough to be able to pick their child's school, but none of us get to pick the other kids in the school.

[GeorgeSteele]

Some people are lucky enough to be able to pick their child's school, but none of us get to pick the other kids in the school.

Home schoolin' brutha!  I kid, I kid, but I do know someone that does that and he's an even more arrogant parent than Prez (sorry, man, I still like you though  ).  He goes on and on about drugs, guns, and moral depravity in schools these days... I'm like, dude, your kid's 5.

[TAP]

Some people are lucky enough to be able to pick their child's school, but none of us get to pick the other kids in the school.

Home schoolin' brutha! 

Ha, but then you don't get to pick the teachers and that's worse 

[Bandita]

@Axl4Prez---I hate to break it to ya buddy, but when your kids hit adolescence/teenhood, they are going to rebel and act badly like most kids that age do.  You can try to instill all the values you want now but it's still going to happen.  No method of parenting is perfect and you still have to deal with outside influence at school and with their friends. 

Home schooling?  God, no!  That's the instant way to turn your kid into a freak.  Sheltering them from everything is wrong and they won't learn a thing about the real world that way. 

Private school?  It depends, here in the good ol' USA.  In actuality, the education requirements for teachers in public schools in most states are WAY beyond what they require in some private schools.  I left my public school for one year in High School thinking the grass was greener on the other side and my Math teacher in my private school's (which is supposed to be this top notch place) MAIN job was as the manager of the local movie theater.  That scared me and I RAN back to my public school. 

I don't think it's a secret that genetics and predisposition do play some key role.  The best you can do to combat that is to try to nourish it or turn it into something positive.  Just because there was a nut or a serial killer in your family doesn't mean that everyone born of that family will be no good.  By nourishing it, I mean even to talk about it.  I see so many families try to hide their dirty secrets and that never works out well.

I think the best parent you can be is one that wears MANY hats.  Not too much spoiling, tough love when it's called for and also be that person that your child is not afraid to come talk to when things go wrong. 

[GeorgeSteele]

I've been keeping my kids in check by telling them if they step out of line I'll let the monster out of the boiler room.  Only kidding, I tried that but it didn't work.  I just tease them until they cry.

My parents would make me run laps around our block (really).  To this day, by the time I complete a mischievous thought, I'm exhausted.

[TAP]

I've been keeping my kids in check by telling them if they step out of line I'll let the monster out of the boiler room.  Only kidding, I tried that but it didn't work.  I just tease them until they cry.

I'm sarcastic to mine (shocker, right ) and she's sarcastic right back even though kids aren't supposed to 'get' sarcasm until 7-8 supposedly.

[SLCPUNK]

Sounds like our house, lots of sarcasm at the dinner table....no crybabies allowed.

[JMack]

I usually just scream about owning a dodge Stratus....and my kids say they hate me and leave the room.

As I said last night, Parenting is a trial and error just as growing up is trial and error as long as the error doesn't lead to a trial.  Parenting is different for many people but their kids do well, also it works in reverse.  In other words....IDK how to raise or want to parent any kid differently then how I do so now.  I do the best I can and hope for the best and deal with things as they come.  Yes there exists many variables and conditions but if you instill good common sense, then your kids should or hopefully do the same.  Yet it's not an exact science and Dr. Spock is dead.  Do bad parents make bad kids?  Not necessarily but for some yes.  For me, So far so good....I shall someday write a book under the name SLC PUNK.  Or a long rambling manifesto while building bombs and drinking moonshine.

[Axl4Prez2004]

I think spoiling a child is the worst thing you can do. Giving them a sense of entitlement is cause for disaster. I think it is important to teach kids how to deal with disappointment. Parents have that instinct to want their child to never feel any sadness or pain, but little league gives trophies to everybody now......... WHAT?  Learning how to lose and dealing with it is huge, going to the store and not getting a toy is huge, not getting to do whatever u want when u want is huge.

I've seen so many parents where the child runs the house and it is just sad and people think they are being great parents but in reality they are just stunting their growth and limiting their coping ability.

^Agreed 1000%.   

[Bandita]

Sure, it's easy for him to say that's how he WILL parent but he isn't one.

Neither am I yet....but in a few short months.

[Axl4Prez2004]

TAP, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.  We are in agreement that it's not all nature or all nurture.  I tend to believe the scale is tilted toward environment.  You seem to place more importance on genetics than I do.  That's cool.

I said I think it's tilted toward environment too.

But I will stress my underlying point again: Modern Western culture (lead by social science and psychology) has tilted 100% towards environment/parenting - one effect being that 'good' parents are made to feel guilty if their kid screws up and that can be bad for both parents and child. All kids screw up, and it's not always your (the parent's) fault.

not always...but usually.  
and 100% is obviosuly way too high.  I feel bad for parents who "try" but just don't know how to parent in the best manner possible.  I feel worse for the kids.

Wow, that's mighty arrogant if you are saying what I think you are saying.

What part of that is arrogant?  There are universally recognized shitty parenting techniques...you obviously know that.  How is my saying that arrogant?  Yeah, I'm an arrogant prick, but I don't see how that particular line proves the fact.

 You referred to your 'little ones' so I assume they aren't teenagers? Let's wait and see how that goes.  .....personally my 5 year old daughter has been her own little person since birth, she's full of surprises (usually good, not alway ) and is certainly not 'moldable' clay. I wouldn't want her to be.

Are you implying I either think my children are, or desire them to be "moldable clay?"  Because I don't.  

A few more points, most of this is distilled from serious scientific study, not stuff I'm making up.

1. Parent's genes (partially) determine how they parent and how the the kids with their inherited genes (partially) respond - and by definition this comes under genetics and not environment.

Yeah, emphasize the "partially."  I hate to tell ya, but when push comes to shove, 9 times out of 10 when parents react with angry verbal outbursts, corporal punishment, or other various shitty parenting techniques, they do it because that's what they know, that's what they were taught.  "If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for my kid," bullshit.  

On a serious note, I really think that SuperNanny program should be required watching for prospective parents.  Yeah, it's timelines are unrealistic, but the methods the nanny uses are effective.  

btw, Bandita, just saw your post...it is quite easy to avoid spoiling children.  I remember being amazed at the folks who'd ask me if I was gonna spoil my kid before I had my 1st.  I'd say no, and they'd reply with, "Oh you just wait!"  Yeah, several years later, guess what?  Hell no.  I don't have kids that grab things at stores.  I don't have kids who get gifts every day.  It took being strong, being a good parent especially in the early stages.  I remember doing some last-second Christmas shopping for the Mrs. and having a ziploc bag of crackers and some cheese cubes for my son to eat when he was 2 years old.  He passed by the Food Court and did the old stand and stare.  He wanted that, and I explained we had this.  He proceeded to throw a little fit and I didn't get angry.  I took him to the side and explained why we weren't eating there.  He proceeded to throw the fit...I gave the warning, and he continued.  I immediately scooped him up all flailing about and I still remember that walk through the mall, Christmas music playing, crowded aisles, me smiling.  We finally got outside and he knew I was disappointed.  We talked more.  He learned his lesson.  It never happened again.  Good stuff.  Now I could have fought through it, gave him a smack, get instant results AND get the shopping done, but parenting trumps my personal desires.  Do that every time and you stack the odds in your favor of raising great kids.

[Bandita]

He knew you were disappointed?  He's 2!

He knew he wasn't in the mall anymore with the happy music, maybe, haha.

All I am saying is that you are STILL in the very early stages of parenting.  You, like every other parent of a teen will be pulling your hair out when those years come.

[TAP]

A4P, since I can't possibly quote in response, I'l reply to the red bits.

1. It was arrogant, I wasn't the only person here who thought that. It wasn't about shitty parenting, it was about your trying being right and other's trying being wrong.

2.

What do you do with the clay you are given?

You make your kids sound like a project.

3. Of course I'll write partially because genetics is probabilistic, it isn't binary - you can't predict outcomes of genetics with certainty any more than you can predict outcomes of parenting with certainty.

9 times out of 10

Here's the thing, I'm pretty sure you are presenting an argument based on your personal observations and anecdotes. That don't mean shit, neither do mine neither do anyone else's here in drawing conclusions. You live in a tiny fraction of time and space. That's why I'm quoting the results of scientific studies and not my own personal observations.

And I don't think you get that some things you think are environment may be genetics - such as shouting at your kids, in fact if it's a cycle it's more likely to be genetics than environment in my opinion. Genetics certainly isn't expecting the opposite of environment, because genetics determines environment. Science doesn't believe violence is learned behaviour by the way.

Actually I think your biggest problem with my argument is that it reduces the awesomeness of your parenting to something that may not be in your control.