"Estranged" video voted as one of worst ever by yahoo music blogs

[One.In.A.Million]

^ Yeah, thats exactly what was the plan. I can't understand how anyone could honestly think it was a mistake to put "part IV of the trilogy".

   That statement is bizarre and backwards to me.  Perhaps you should re-read your own words.  You think it's unreasonable for their to be a Part IV (four) of a trilogy (three) under any circumstances?  You think there is no way that creates confusion?

Wasn't that because part 3 was originally meant to be a slightly different story?, in Axl's words " a mutual self destruction of the couple that was in November Rain". But because Seymour had other plans, they couldn't finish the trilogy of videos. So Axl had to work on another way to make it work, and that's why they called it part 4.

Well if Part 3 never happened, why would it be called Part 4?  Three videos = a trilogy, just like 12 eggs = a dozen.

I've been a GNR a long time and I hadn't heard that before.  But it sounds to me like more overelaborate, cryptic psychobabble.  Maybe it's something that made sense in Axl's mind, but to the world at large...

Axl called it part 4, to let everyone know that this was not the follow on video from November Rain. But something created, in the event of real life ruining plans and ultimately a relationship. It's Axl's decision, why do you need to dictate and moan. 

You seem be a person who cares about what the rest of the world thinks, rather than sticking your finger up and saying fuck you. I'm sure Axl doesn't give crap about some so called fan, who wants to take the piss just because he called it part 4 and not 3. 

[rabia]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate on that one.  The UYI videos were gaudy and grossly overproduced.  I will disagree that the "Estranged" video is one of the worst videos ever, but I do agree that -- like the videos for "Don't Cry" and "November Rain" -- "Estranged" went way overboard.  The song was a simple song about dealing with unrequited love, but the video involved millions dollars and weeks to film.  For fuck's sake, Slash even had a guitar stunt double!  So I'll agree with the "bloated" and "overindulgent" criticisms.  They had tons of money, so they spent it.  And remember that the yahoo article didn't criticize GNR's music, just the overelaborate videos.

how exactly were Dead Horse or Civil War or Yesterdays or Garden of Eden gaudy or over-produced? they were UYI videos too. A band cant do something on a grand scale as a contrast to their leaner material? What is "gaudy" to you doesnt have to be gaudy to everybody.

Personally, I really like the video for November Rain. Its got creativity, suspense (the what happened? how did she die? part), raw emotion plus theatricality. Whatever the "critics" may say about it, the video is iconic for a reason. It was the most requested video on MTV for a while and brought the band attention from a wider audience than ever before. The guitar solo has been filmed so wonderfully, it gave Slash a truly memorable moment in rock video history. The song may be simple to some but I find the emotions in it complex and the instrumentation quite intricate. The majesty of the environment, costumes, setting etc mirrors the soaring quality of the music. Its a natural fit.

Dont Cry was a very confusing video for a lot of people but the scattered fragments invite audience participation in deriving meaning and I like that.

I do think the Estranged video was overdone in parts (the dolphin metaphor was used excessively even before Axl jumped into the ocean) but I dont see spending big money and taking weeks to film a video as something to cringe about. What has happened to the world if rock, the kind of music usually associated with outrage, drama and general over-the-top-ness cant indulge in those things anymore? I find Estranged an even more complex song than NR. The protagonist goes through various stages in dealing with the loss of his vision of love (anger, pain, contemplation, acceptance)- the song is elaborate and the video takes off from there. t

And I'm aware that the writer here isnt criticizing GNR's music but like I said, the tag of "bloated", "self-indulgent" has just become a general diss attached to the GNR legacy from the UYI era onwards.

[westcoast_junkie]

Do Civil War have a music video??

[Voodoochild]

No, but here at the MTV Brazil they used to air the Tokyo '92 live version as a video. Dunno if it was ever considered something "official".

[rabia]

No, but here at the MTV Brazil they used to air the Tokyo '92 live version as a video. Dunno if it was ever considered something "official".

yup, that's the one they played in Asia too.

[AxlReznor]

I personally can't stand videos that are just of the band playing the song. It's like, "what's the point?".
I much prefer it when artists see creating music videos as an artform in itself rather than as an advertisement for the single. Michael Jackson, Tool, A Perfect Circle, Nine Inch Nails and Guns N' Roses went the extra mile with their videos, and I wouldn't have it the 'Don't Cry', 'November Rain' or 'Estranged' videos any other way.
Someone asked why not do the big epic style videos for their straightforward rockers? Well, because they're straightforward rockers... they call for a different style of of video otherwise it'd just look out of place. But epic songs with an epic production require an epic video... they compliment each other perfectly. And I think the things in 'Don't Cry' like the car crash, etc. wasn't supposed to be a literal interpretation of the lyrics, but a metaphorical interpretation of the feelings going through Axl's mind at the time he wrote the song. Same with all of the other 'weird bits with nothing to do with the song' in the other two videos.

They're basically miniature movies, and if Christopher Nolan can get away with not spoon-feeding meanings and resolutions to his audience (something that I think makes movies like Memento and Inception a whole lot more interesting), I don't see any reason why Axl should. Maybe they are self-indulgent... but I truly believe that all of the best art is.

[Ulises]

No, but here at the MTV Brazil they used to air the Tokyo '92 live version as a video. Dunno if it was ever considered something "official".

Same thing here in Argentina.

[Limulus]

^^same thing on "MTV Europe" in 1992!

i still have VHS Masters from that, recorded from tv (MTV Europe).

[Bridge]

how exactly were Dead Horse or Civil War or Yesterdays or Garden of Eden gaudy or over-produced?

I think it was obvious that I was referring specifically to the trilogy.  I even mentioned them by name.

I do think the Estranged video was overdone in parts

I wouldn't have such a problem with the trilogy videos being elaborate if they actually stuck to the song.  But as I said earlier, what the hell do big stunt car crashes have to do with the lyrics of "Don't Cry"?  The one argument is that they shouldn't just stand on stage and play.  I agree with that.  But the other side (which I take) is that they shouldn't just spend a shitload of money just because they have it, on things that don't make any sense.

the tag of "bloated", "self-indulgent" has just become a general diss attached to the GNR legacy from the UYI era onwards.

Well, with overelaborate videos, a horn section, backup singers, multiple keyboard players (Dizzy Reed, Teddy zigzag), I can see why.  As Izzy Stradlin once said, "whatever happened to five guys playing rock n roll?"

[AxlReznor]

I hate having to quote myself, but...

And I think the things in 'Don't Cry' like the car crash, etc. wasn't supposed to be a literal interpretation of the lyrics, but a metaphorical interpretation of the feelings going through Axl's mind at the time he wrote the song. Same with all of the other 'weird bits with nothing to do with the song' in the other two videos.

They're basically miniature movies, and if Christopher Nolan can get away with not spoon-feeding meanings and resolutions to his audience (something that I think makes movies like Memento and Inception a whole lot more interesting), I don't see any reason why Axl should. Maybe they are self-indulgent... but I truly believe that all of the best art is.

[rabia]

I think its just become the trend among mindless "critics" to diss the UYI era as "bloated" and "self-indulgent".

I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate on that one.  The UYI videos were gaudy and grossly overproduced. 

this is how you started. why reduce the UYI videos only to the trilogy when there are obviously others?

[rabia]

how exactly were Dead Horse or Civil War or Yesterdays or Garden of Eden gaudy or over-produced?

I think it was obvious that I was referring specifically to the trilogy.  I even mentioned them by name.

I do think the Estranged video was overdone in parts

I wouldn't have such a problem with the trilogy videos being elaborate if they actually stuck to the song.  But as I said earlier, what the hell do big stunt car crashes have to do with the lyrics of "Don't Cry"?  The one argument is that they shouldn't just stand on stage and play.  I agree with that.  But the other side (which I take) is that they shouldn't just spend a shitload of money just because they have it, on things that don't make any sense.

the tag of "bloated", "self-indulgent" has just become a general diss attached to the GNR legacy from the UYI era onwards.

Well, with overelaborate videos, a horn section, backup singers, multiple keyboard players (Dizzy Reed, Teddy zigzag), I can see why.  As Izzy Stradlin once said, "whatever happened to five guys playing rock n roll?"

As I said before, attempting to isolate the trilogy as if it exists in isolation is a distorted way of looking at things. The trilogy was just one part of the UYI era videos, it needs to be seen as part of a broader picture.

As AxlReznor and I have been trying to explain, artistic interpretation is'nt about mechanically acting out the lyrics. What I gather from Axl's words in the making of Dont Cry is that the video comments on destructive relationships (among other things). The lyrics too clearly relate to a romantic association that's breaking. The car crash can be a symbolic representation of such destructive dynamics as the emotional damage is configured as physical wreckage. Whether the images "make sense" to people or not depends upon how they engage with them, what associations they bring to the video, etc.


To reiterate, the "overelaborate" videos were only PART of what GN'R produced in these years. Dropping the other videos from the conversation may be convenient because they dont sync with your one-dimensional characterization of GNR from this era but its an artificial choice to ignore them.

Again, whats wrong with 5 guys playing rock n roll evolving? Some of the greatest bands in history like The Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin experimented continuously. The Rolling Stones had a female singer contribute to Gimme Shelter, The Beatles came very far from A Hard Day's Night, Led Zeppelin actually incorporated instruments like the mandolin and mellotron into their songs. Look at how elaborate Kashmir is, with the string and horns sections.

If musicians are marked for life by their early work and are chided for trying other things, it will simply stunt them. Formulaic repetition of old styles is often embraced easily by old-time fans while experimentation can ruffle feathers but that's precisely why it takes guts. Its those artists who grow and develop that I find far more interesting.



 

[King Axl]

I didn't really care for the "Estranged" video, but it's better than the band's last official video, "Since I Don't Have You", which really showcased the band as a bunch of guys who were reveling in the spoils of wealth and had lost their hunger...a truly self-indulgent piece of garbage, the only video I refuse to watch on their DVD collection

[One.In.A.Million]

I didn't really care for the "Estranged" video, but it's better than the band's last official video, "Since I Don't Have You", which really showcased the band as a bunch of guys who were reveling in the spoils of wealth and had lost their hunger...a truly self-indulgent piece of garbage, the only video I refuse to watch on their DVD collection

What, you don't enjoy Dizzy, Gilby and Duff on the beach getting to chat up hot babes.

No, but seriously I don't think it's that bad. But I agree that it does give off the vibe of a band that had lost it's hunger, and was just making a video for the sake of it. 

[Jeramy]

it's one my favorite videos of all time... i always enjoyed the 'weirdness' of it

it's like life you know... make what you want out of it