Ex G N' R manager blames Slash and Axl Rose’s feud on Michael Jackson

[mortismurphy]

Still doesn't matter how many photos he was in!
It doesn't prove that he was indeed hired to write songs with the band.

''Gilby Clarke, rhythm guitarist of GN'R (disclaimer: he is not allowed to write our songs)''

You tell me. You seem to know something the rest of the world doesn't.
Steven Adler got paid for songs he didn't write a note on.

But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!

Traditionally?
This was a point when he wanted them to do his songs his way.

Slash doesn't traditionally sing, but he did on "TSI?". Go figure.

But even he says he wrote lyrics to those songs..... And here you are trying to say the opposite to prove your point. Your only evidence is the songs' credits.

For most people, the ASCAP credit would be a fairly crucial bit of evidence. Seemingly not for you though as it makes Axl a liar.

According to Duff's book, Slash would still do more than drink at his time.

I do not know how you want me to reply here as temperance does not fit well with Guns N' Roses. Appetite, their greatest triumph, for instance was made on a diet of smack and cheap booze. Stinson still today is permanently sozzled.

[pilferk]

I do not know how you want me to reply here as temperance does not fit well with Guns N' Roses. Appetite, their greatest triumph, for instance was made on a diet of smack and cheap booze. Stinson still today is permanently sozzled.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[pilferk]

For most people, the ASCAP credit would be a fairly crucial bit of evidence. Seemingly not for you though as it makes Axl a liar.

It's evidence he did "something" to those lyrics (or music..though I think it's a safe bet his contribution DID involve lyrics).  He could have taken original lyrics and polished them up enough that Slash thought he deserved a writing credit on them.

Or he could have written the majority of them.

Or he could have wholesale re-written large swaths of lyrics that Slash had already written, using them as a basis.

Or something in between.

Or something different for each song.

The point is: We don't know.  A writing credit isn't broken down into a %, by amount of contribution. It just is.  And it can represent any one of the scenarios, above, or one not detailed at all.

It's all about who the creative entity wants to assign credit, and their own reasoning as to why.  There's no real ASCAP rule...they "obey" the creative entity who submits the paperwork assigning credit.

Edit: Also, though I could be misremembering, I think Slash is listed first on all credits, in the linear notes, except Dime Store (Gilby gets top billing) and Monkey Chow (cause he didn't contribute..it's Gilby's song). In ASCAP..everything is sorted by Alpha...

[jarmo]

''Gilby Clarke, rhythm guitarist of GN'R (disclaimer: he is not allowed to write our songs)''

How many songs did Matt Sorum write for GN'R?

But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!

The songs were listed under Guns N' Roses Music and as far as I recall, he got a piece of that pie.

For most people, the ASCAP credit would be a fairly crucial bit of evidence. Seemingly not for you though as it makes Axl a liar.

The problem you have is that you can't prove any of this.

You just want it to be true so badly that you'll find any excuse to go on with your theory.

I do not know how you want me to reply here

Maybe you could admit that maybe the recollections of that kind of person isn't necessarily as accurate as you wish.



/jarmo

[Spirit]

But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!

At what time was this true?

He does have individual credits for the Appetite and Lies songs when you search in the database.

[pilferk]

But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!

At what time was this true?

He does have individual credits for the Appetite and Lies songs when you search in the database.

I believe ASCAP converted to individual artist number(s) post Adler lawsuit resolution....but the original ASCAP credit (and royalties, which was the stickler) was assigned to "Guns n Roses Music".  Guns n Roses Music was assigned as an administrator, after the lawsuit (and, I think that was the basis of the Slash/Duff "royalty check sent to the wrong address" issue).

I'd have to re-read through the paperwork, again, to be sure, though.  I haven't read it in a LONG time, but that's my memory of it. I could very well be wrong.

[Spirit]

But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!

At what time was this true?

He does have individual credits for the Appetite and Lies songs when you search in the database.

I believe ASCAP converted to individual artist number(s) post Adler lawsuit resolution....but the original ASCAP credit (and royalties, which was the stickler) was assigned to "Guns n Roses Music".  Guns n Roses Music was assigned as an administrator, after the lawsuit.

I'd have to re-read through the paperwork, again, to be sure, though.  I haven't read it in a LONG time, but that's my memory of it. I could very well be wrong.

Do we have access to any information regarding the publishing etc. from the Appetite days? Could be interesting to look into, just for the fun of it. 

Also, GN'R's publishing was through BMI at the time, not ASCAP. Just in case someone wants to look into it.

[mortismurphy]

I meant in the booklet. If you scan your booklet it is 'Guns N' Roses', not ''Rose/Slash/Adler'' (or some other combination).

How many songs did Matt Sorum write for GN'R?

Hopeless analogy as Sorum was hired when most of the Illusion material was already written. There are no particular reasons why his songwriting would not have made a hypothetical new album around 1996 or 1997. He wrote Set Me Free for VR after all.

The songs were listed under Guns N' Roses Music and as far as I recall, he got a piece of that pie.

But not a name in the booklet!

The problem you have is that you can't prove any of this.

You just want it to be true so badly that you'll find any excuse to go on with your theory.

Sticking strictly to your Slash quotation, we have to assume that these 'Eric' songs had Slash lyrics when they were originally brought in to Axl. To exonerate Axl from lying, we have to manufacture a quite complicated series of assumptions. I don't buy it.

[pilferk]

But Adler was not given an individual ASCAP songwriting creditation!

At what time was this true?

He does have individual credits for the Appetite and Lies songs when you search in the database.

I believe ASCAP converted to individual artist number(s) post Adler lawsuit resolution....but the original ASCAP credit (and royalties, which was the stickler) was assigned to "Guns n Roses Music".  Guns n Roses Music was assigned as an administrator, after the lawsuit.

I'd have to re-read through the paperwork, again, to be sure, though.  I haven't read it in a LONG time, but that's my memory of it. I could very well be wrong.

Do we have access to any information regarding the publishing etc. from the Appetite days? Could be interesting to look into, just for the fun of it. 

Also, GN'R's publishing was through BMI at the time, not ASCAP. Just in case someone wants to look into it.

Yup, Gilby's still is (BMI), I think. And it's a good point re: the ASCAP conversion.  It may very well have got "converted" when they moved from BMI to ASCAP, just as a matter of process.

The lawsuit "stuff" is out there, somewhere.  It's been awhile since I went poking around for it (and I'm not sure I have time to do the research, at present).  It gives you a pretty good "at the time" snapshot of their publishing stuff.  Some of it was laid out plainly, some you had to read a little between the lines to figure out.  At least that's how I remember it.

Ditto on the publically available court filings from the Slash/Duff vs Axl royalty lawsuit from about 10 years back.

[Spirit]

Thanks!

[pilferk]

Sticking strictly to your Slash quotation, we have to assume that these 'Eric' songs had Slash lyrics when they were originally brought in to Axl. To exonerate Axl from lying, we have to manufacture a quite complicated series of assumptions. I don't buy it.

See, neither set of assumptions seems more complex than the other, really

In one, you have Slash bringing "mostly" finished material to Axl, and given the already high tensions, an insistence the material is "take it or leave it".  

In the other, you have Slash bringing mostly finished music, to collaborate with a guy (lyrically) he has no history with, and insisting he write lyrics, on his own, for a project that, really, showcases Slash (and has his name in the top billing position).

It's about perspective.  Axl and Slash's, and who's telling the story.  Personally, I don't think Axl was lying.  I think, likely, there was so much animosity already built up that the creative process led to shouting matches..which lead to Axl believing what he does about Slash not wanting to allow changes to the material.  If all that shit wasn't already there...would there been a more collaborative spirit? Maybe so.  

When it came time for Slash's Snakepit, and Slash had the material mostly ready to go, he likely realized that lyrics aren't his strong point and he sought out someone else who had skills in that area, and asked for help.  Different songs likely had different amounts of changes, polishing, re-working, or complete rebuilding.  Enough that Dover deserved some credit for his skills.  Slash has SAID he wrote lyrics for those songs...his own words.  I don't think he's lying, here, either.

I don't find any of the above, in my scenario, to be complicated or require a need to make large leaps in logic.

YMMV.

[jarmo]

Hopeless analogy as Sorum was hired when most of the Illusion material was already written. There are no particular reasons why his songwriting would not have made a hypothetical new album around 1996 or 1997. He wrote Set Me Free for VR after all.

Gilby joined in the middle of the tour. Doesn't that tell you something?
What you fail to see is that he was an additional musician. Sorry.

But not a name in the booklet!

Not a name, but part of the group that's credited to the song writing.

Sticking strictly to your Slash quotation, we have to assume that these 'Eric' songs had Slash lyrics when they were originally brought in to Axl. To exonerate Axl from lying, we have to manufacture a quite complicated series of assumptions. I don't buy it.

Your assumption is that no lyrics existed. Yet, Slash is the sole writer of one song on that album. Who wrote those lyrics?

I think it's more likely that Dover got credited for certain lyrics, and maybe vocal melodies.





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Imagine having to split the loot with Adler.  Wouldn't that just kill you?

[pilferk]

Imagine having to split the loot with Adler.  Wouldn't that just kill you?

Meh, not me.  Not for afd.

But then, its not my 20% of millions, so i can afford to be magnanimous.

[Bridge]

Imagine having to split the loot with Adler.  Wouldn't that just kill you?

If that comment refers to Axl claiming he was forced to share his percentage, of course there is Steven's and Slash's side (told in their books) that Axl basically wanted to discredit Steven and take his share, and that Steven was the one who ended up compromising.

[mortismurphy]

Gilby joined in the middle of the tour. Doesn't that tell you something?
What you fail to see is that he was an additional musician. Sorry.

'Additional musician' is just something concocted by the 'Axl camp' to devalue Gilby and Matt's contributions. Either Gilby was a member of GN'R, or Tracy and Roberta. As seen by the merest look at the TSI booklet, he was a GN'R member.

Not a name, but part of the group that's credited to the song writing.

These booklet credits must count for something? They must indicate something?

Your assumption is that no lyrics existed. Yet, Slash is the sole writer of one song on that album. Who wrote those lyrics?

I think it's more likely that Dover got credited for certain lyrics, and maybe vocal melodies.

There were probably no lyrics (on the original DAT). Slash had not formally written GN'R lyrics (unless you include a line in Paradise City). Why would he suddenly start in 1994-5? The notion that he had fixed lyrics set in place, that Axl had to sing, is blatantly absurd. It flies flat in the face of how GN'R had hitherto operated.

He is also an intelligent guy Slash. I am sure he knows Axl's lyrics are going to be better than ''Be the Ball''. Why would Slash cut his nose off to despite his face?

It is additionally not how Slash has operated since. Myles writes the lyrics just as Scott did. So we are expected to believe that in 1994-5 Slash suddenly had the inspiration to become a lyricist, only to put it back in the draw and throw away the key?

[jarmo]

'Additional musician' is just something concocted by the 'Axl camp' to devalue Gilby and Matt's contributions. Either Gilby was a member of GN'R, or Tracy and Roberta. As seen by the merest look at the TSI booklet, he was a GN'R member.

He was a "member" as much as Matt Sorum, but not part of the actual band.... He wasn't part of the decision making.

Regarding your song writing thing. Matt Sorum joined, and according to the Famous Last Words with Axl, Matt wrote his own material. But didn't get any song writing credits...
So even though the songs were written, he wrote something. So even with him, they had a history of working on original material with him. With Gilby, not so much.

These booklet credits must count for something? They must indicate something?

Sure, that they didn't want to give out specific information until Use Your Illusion I & II when the credits were displayed with each song.

There were probably no lyrics (on the original DAT). Slash had not formally written GN'R lyrics (unless you include a line in Paradise City). Why would he suddenly start in 1994-5? The notion that he had fixed lyrics set in place, that Axl had to sing, is blatantly absurd. It flies flat in the face of how GN'R had hitherto operated.

Assumptions by you. Once again, Be The Ball is only credited to him. Who wrote those lyrics since Slash isn't capable?

He is also an intelligent guy Slash. I am sure he knows Axl's lyrics are going to be better than ''Be the Ball''. Why would Slash cut his nose off to despite his face?

It is additionally not how Slash has operated since. Myles writes the lyrics just as Scott did. So we are expected to believe that in 1994-5 Slash suddenly had the inspiration to become a lyricist, only to put it back in the draw and throw away the key?

He's also the guy who did something and then he would say something else to try to save face.

Those other bands were different cases. He needed the singer. Easier to play nice when you need something from somebody else.




/jarmo

[LongGoneDay]

Imagine having to split the loot with Adler.  Wouldn't that just kill you?

He helped create one of the greatest albums of all time, and had a hand in AFD through UYI, so I?d say he earned it.

I think people, myself included, tend to under appreciate the role that the chemistry of the band members plays in the creation of the songs we enjoy.
Even with all the evidence right in front of us.

Those guys on AFD were clearly meant to make music together. The band soldiered on without Adler, and you might even be able to make the case that they got better with Sorum, but we know that Adler?s termination was the beginning of the end of that era. Izzy has said Steven leaving changed things for the worse. The band never recovered creatively when Izzy left, and Slash leaving was just the nail in the coffin.

Technically you can replace any person, but you can?t replace the chemistry/synergy they take with them out the door.
I think as fans we want to believe certain players are replaceable so that bands we enjoy can move forward when someone inevitably leaves, and we justify it with writing credits, who?s vision it was, technical ability, lack thereof,  etc etc, but the proof is in the pudding. Great bands are few and far between, and their parts aren?t interchangeable.

[JAEBALL]

Imagine having to split the loot with Adler.  Wouldn't that just kill you?

He helped create one of the greatest albums of all time, and had a hand in AFD through UYI, so I?d say he earned it.

I think people, myself included, tend to under appreciate the role that the chemistry of the band members plays in the creation of the songs we enjoy.
Even with all the evidence right in front of us.

Those guys on AFD were clearly meant to make music together. The band soldiered on without Adler, and you might even be able to make the case that they got better with Sorum, but we know that Adler?s termination was the beginning of the end of that era. Izzy has said Steven leaving changed things for the worse. The band never recovered creatively when Izzy left, and Slash leaving was just the nail in the coffin.

Technically you can replace any person, but you can?t replace the chemistry/synergy they take with them out the door.
I think as fans we want to believe certain players are replaceable so that bands we enjoy can move forward when someone inevitably leaves, and we justify it with writing credits, who?s vision it was, technical ability, lack thereof,  etc etc, but the proof is in the pudding. Great bands are few and far between, and their parts aren?t interchangeable.

As usual... you nailed it on the head.

Steven didn't write one song... but he helped mold them. He shouldn't be undervalued or shit on for that.

However if he gave drugs to my wife... and almost killed her... I wouldn't want anything to do with him either ... let alone pay him millions of dollars.

[LongGoneDay]

ha, yeah I can see where Axl was coming from on that one.