Here Today... Gone To Hell!

From mtv.com/News

Slash, Duff Sue Axl Over Guns N' Roses Publishing Royalties
08.22.2005 5:42 PM EDT

They say he sold the rights without their consent and is pocketing the profit.

It's been over a decade since the original members of Guns N' Roses went their separate ways, but their feud is still going strong.

Slash and Duff McKagan filed a federal lawsuit in Los Angeles on Wednesday against Axl Rose, accusing the GN'R frontman of changing the publisher of the group's copyrighted songs without their consent and pocketing the royalties.

The lawsuit follows Rose's multimillion-dollar publishing deal with Sanctuary earlier this year, in which he sold the publishing rights to the GN'R back catalog. "Suffering an apparent attack of arrogance and ego ... Rose recently decided that he is no longer willing to acknowledge the contributions of his former partners and bandmates in having created some of rock's greatest hits," the lawsuit reads.

Though the Sanctuary deal was reported on by the press, Slash and Duff claim they weren't aware of the scope of Rose's dealings ? which they say he "omitted and concealed" ? until their expected royalty payments for the first quarter of 2005 didn't arrive in the mail. "When the ASCAP check didn't come, we called and they looked into it," McKagan's lawyer, Glen Miskel, said. "We didn't know all the facts at first."

Miskel said that only last week did they discover that Rose had notified ASCAP on or around May 26 that he was switching over the publishing from Guns N' Roses to Black Frog Music Publishing (which he owns) and Kobalt Songs Music Publishing (which is a joint venture with and handles the administration of Sanctuary's publishing). Consequently, the ASCAP check for the first quarter of 2005 ? some $92,000 ? went to Rose and "his accomplices" instead, the lawsuit contends.

"Rose's actions were malicious, fraudulent and oppressive, and undertaken in conscious disregard of [Slash and Duff's] property rights," the lawsuit reads. They're seeking damages for fraud, copyright infringement and breach of fiduciary duty, among other things.

Sanctuary didn't return calls for comment.

Can't we all just get along?

why would they be pissed that he sold his share of the publishing rights as well as his future rights to the music that he owns?

Slash and Duff need to move on.

Jesus, I pray to god he didn't do this.

Axl needs stop being so spiteful towards the former members.  I can understand Axl going out and getting a better publishing deal, but to not inform Slash and Duff is just wrong.  Their contributions to the music are undeniable and need to be rewarded.

or reunite with Axl. But yeah he should've informed them.

Seems like ASCAP now lists Black Frog Music and Kobalt Songs Music Publishing instead of Guns N' Roses Music.


The song writing credits haven't been changed.



You might also like to know that in the Live Era booklet you can read:
Project coordination Del James for Black Frog Ent





/jarmo

I can't believe that Izzy wouldn't want to get involved.  He one of the most important members back when he was in the band.  He probably just doesn't want anything at all to do with Axl. 

He needed to pay them. If he took their money, god help him.

If  the checks are not in the mail or this is a mix up we can kiss 2005 good  bye.

This dont look good for the immediate future of GNR. More court woes, and this time it looks like trouble. They could countersue for even more damages.

no wonder their is no sign of chinese democracy Axl's too busy screwing former band members.

If anyone says Axl doesn't need the money, or doesn't do this for the money, here is your example of this selfish fock in action. ?$92,000, dam, that is a lot of money for just three months...... ?He now has zero motivation to release an album. ?Why should he? ?Now he can just go a way a legend not really focking up. ?If he releases a bomb, then he will always be remembered for that last album. ?He is way to insecure for that. ?Slash and Duff would have gotten back with him because they could have fixed the past. ?But stealing from the guys that helped make you big.............that may never be fixed.

Is it possible this is the fault of the publishing company? Maybe since it was the first quarter of the new contract, they screwed up to whom the checks were sent?

Slash and Duff would have to prove that Axl directed all the funds to his own account.

There is always 2 sides to EVERY story. Why all of a sudden are they filing a lawsuit over this when the publishing deal happened months ago?

Because royalty checks weren't delivered in a timely manner...

But yes, there are 2 sides.  For all we know, this could have been a logistical oversight and in no way
a calculated move to deprive former members of their cash.

i think it was because their royalty checks didn't come.

Yes but they would have known before now that they were gonna get checks. I mean the check was suppose to be for the first 3 months of 2005, so they should have known by May that they weren't gonna get anything, so why wait till almost the end of Aughust to file a lawsuit.....

chinese Democracy really needs to come out...let's just end with those lawsuits. Americans are nuts sometimes with their non-stop lawsuits.

I would love to hear Sanctuary's response, but I have a feeling we will get a generic "truth will come out in court" response.

Songwriting credits don't have anything to do with royalties. You can not sign away your writing credits (= copyright), but you can sign away your right on having a share on the royalties. Now if that's what Slash and Duff did when Axl took over the name, then they're fucked. I'm sure it must have something to do with that.

Maybe they were on tour and forgot about their checks because they haven't been home in so long?

It seems as though they'd been receiving royalty checks up to now, didn't the signing over of the name to Axl take place years ago?

ya, 1992 they signed them over. 

Could anyone give any insight on what the hell is this Black Frog Kobalt music thing? It's the first time I've ever heard of those...

is it really important? could it delay Chinese Democracy yes ou no?

This must be a screw up, Axl would not be this stupid and pull this stunt with the other court case hanging over his head in a few months, UNLESS axl has proof that Duff and Slash signed away their royalty rights, but I dont think that happened.

I would tend to say yes, any kind of legal wrangling tends to clog the wheels of progress.

Just speculating of course.

Well firstly, they wouldn't normally get 1st quarter money before late May early June anyway, and so they wouldn't have noticed until maybe mid-June that the cheques hadn't arrived. Secondly, things move slowly in the law,and it takes time to finetune what you're saying when filing a lawsuit. These things take a while to draft, and they've been touring over the summer so they probably haven't had the opportunity to spend much time with a lawyer.

this is pretty god damn fucked up, and the timing is just great too, no cd this year, i'll bet my fucking guitar on that...

and i wonder who's the fucking motherfucking stupid fucked up asshole who's cousing this, Ax or S n' D... i mean it has to be one of the parts....

1. Axl does this so he can delay CD with a good excuse...

or

2. Slash n' Duff does this because they won't let Axl do his thing....

thats my narrow view on the most fucked up news we've had in years...

god damn it.....

From the looks of it, Black Frogs a company owned by Axl to shuffle money in and out of.

Axl cant be defended on this one

whether he likes it or not, GNR's back catalogue was heavily contributed to by the former members and he has no right whatsoever to fuck them out of their money or to change publishing companies without their consent.

Slash and Duff will win this one easily and rightfully so, there is no way they'd sign over publishing

had they signed over publishing and royalties, the GNR checks wouldve stopped coming in the mid 90's and not now.

until the whole gnr name/money issue is solved we wont see CD.

We dont even knwo the whole story, were only hearing one side of it. For all anyone knows Axl might not have had anything to do with it since he did sign away his publishing rights to sanctuary. Maybe they were the ones who did it. Maybe this is just more bullshit frmo slash and duff. No one knows the truth, we only know one side of the story....

You are assuming Duff and Slash's accusations are credible. It could be possible the publishing company made a mistake and didnt' pay out appropriately. D and S are alledging that Axl maliciously hid the change of the publishing right from S and D and then knowingly took their money. He may owe them the royalties if they were deposited in his account but the question of punitive damages would reside with how much Axl knew what was going on.

You think Slash,Duff, and Axl would get tired of this, a reunion would eventually happen just to solve the problem?

Axl needs to get wise to the fact that Slash/Duff aren't in a drug induced hase anymore the way they were when he used to pull stuff and they were oblivious too it.

Duff went to college, they got cleaned up, and obviously have real legal representation now that is opening their eyes a bit about things they maybe didn't take interest in before.

Axl will from here on out have to take into account that they are going to pursue every legality possible in terms of their ownership in anything GNR related. The autonomy he operated with in the past when they were drugged out and oblivious is not the reality of their life anymore. He is going to have to change his behavior accordingly to avoid being sued every 6 months for taking more liberties than he is allowed.

He creates these situations though, so he has no one to blame but himself if he is tired of being sued. He needs to buy them out and get them out of his life. This cycle is never going to end as long as he insists on using the name, and they have any stake in the dealings of the back catalog.

There is a fraud allegation out there. I don't think a reunion will ever happen at this point even if Axl wants one.

Axl knew what he was doing, seriously

some are assuming Duff and Slash signed away their publishing rights but they've been getting royatly payments up until this year, so they still have their rights or else the checks wouldve stopped as soon as they signed the name away to Axl.


It is possible that the new publishing company made an oversight and simply forgot to cut the checks but that seems a little too convenient for my tastes

I love Axl more than anyone but lets dont act like he is a genuine innocent nice guy cause honestly he isnt.

The publishing company didn't change on it's own. So that will certainly fall on Axl, as he was the only one with any authority who could have made it happen.

Short of a clerical error on the part of the company, Axl is going to have a lot of explaining to do as this can be the doing of no one else involved but him.

You can also bet that this will be introduced as evidence into the other outstanding case in terms of malicious intent to defraud as it is begining to look more like a pattern than an isolated incident.

Why are some of u still harping on a reunion

what part of that will never happen cant some of u realize?

The only reason bands reunite is for money and to reclaim fame

if axl has made one thing abundantely clear over the last ten years, its that he has plenty of money and he could care less about fame.

Its never happening and if it did Id lose all respect for every member of the band.

and what was he doing? No one here has seen the publishing contract or has any knowledge of what royalty payments were made.

Seems like Axl really screwed  up this time..


But hell maybe Duff and Slash have really fuckin slow mail men.

are u serious? Im one of the biggest Axl supporters on the board but he isnt some precious angel who does no wrong.

like naupis said, outside a clerical error, he has some serious explaining to do, Axl is to smart to pull that "I didnt know" routine.


Until I hear his side of the story, goin by the overwhelming evidence, it seems like he is trying to fuck over his former bandmates and I dont care if it were my mother, that shit aint cool.

Exactly.

The filing of a lawsuit isn't proof of anything.  Their checks could be late or there could be an error, who knows. But this 'overwhelming evidence' of which you speak is merely conjecture from one side of a dispute. Could this latest lawsuit be a strong arm tactic by S and D's lawyers to force a settlement from Axl in the first action? From my seat, this reeks of eleventh hour lawyering....

So they got their royalties as long as it was the same publishing deal. Now that there is a new one, things are a bit different - even for Axl, who does not have any publishing rights anymore, since he singed them over to Sanctuary, remember? Shareholder wise maybe he gets his share out of this (I'm sure he does), but officially he does not own the publishing rights anymore. Sanctuary (or a sub-company / label whatsoever) owns them and decides who gets a share out of them.

Here's the money chain:

1.) Writer -> Publisher -> Royalties

2.) Royalties -> Publisher -> Writer

Only the writer / author can sign away the publishing rights, that implies Axl must have owned 100% of the writing side or else he could not have signed over the publishing rights to Sanctuary.

Wich leads us to Slash and Duff, who WROTE GN'R MATERIAL AND ARE CREDITED AS THE WRITERS / AUTHORS, but probably signed away their publishing rights along with the name. They'd still be the legit writers / authors and no one in his right mind would say there are not, but IF they signed over the PUBLISHNG rights, the money MIGHT be gone.

Put simple, it depends on the publishing deal - but that's inside info I don't have.

All I know is that trials are soul-destroying for Axl. It won't help the process of Chinese Democracy. I hope these guys just do it to claim what they actually should deserve or else I guess they enjoy to block Axl. >:(

I think S and D are suing because axl moved the publishing arm without their knowledge and tried to cover it up.

I think if they were aware they would still sue. I'm sure that Axl would inform them if he knew they would be pleasant if they were enlightened. Impossible huh?

Axl would have pulled this move a loooooong time ago if he had a way to legally take their royalty checks away from them. That is the way he is.

That's why I feel reasonably comfortable in assuming that short of a clerical error, it will most likely be found that at some point Axl acted in a way not consistent with his legal abilities in regards to the partnership.

And you know the guy personally right? Oh yeah your just ASSUMING based on what 2 guys say and those guys have been totally incinsistant in their stories for years. One of them even has to be reminded of what happened in the 90's.

Why does it seem that Duff and Slash never have a clue about what is going on in regards to these things.  It is always Axl's fault.  I am not saying that they aren't right in this case, but they don't seem to take responsibility for anything.

As far as Izzy getting involved I think the chances are zero to less than zero.  This is one of the reasons he left Guns.  He wanted to get away from the circus.  Why do you think he stays out of the spotlight.

I strongly doubt that they filed a federal lawsuit without checking that stuff out first. ?

Just like with the current lawsuit, I think its unwise to judge something of this nature. ?None of know nearly enough details...However I will say this: Judging by the Adler case, Axls power moves with Slash and Duff over the name, the current lawsuit, and his dubious move with Black Hawk Down, its very possiblt that this suit has merit.

Please list examples.  The more, the better.  : ok:

After all this time I Have been on the board, i still get amused on how far people will go to support Axl.

Conny: First of all, Axl has no right to move the publishing, that's the first complaint, ?he owns the name GNR but just the name, the catalogue didnt come with the name.


2nd as Ive posted 3 times now, If Slash and Duff had signed away their publishing with the name, they wouldve stopped receiving money 10 years ago, not just now after Axl signed it to Sanctuary.



and to answer u killingVector, Duff and Slash didnt receive their FIRST QUARTER checks

First quarter is January,February and March

so u are telling me the mail is 3 months late?

VR were on tour, they didnt have time for a lawsuit but now their tour is winding down, they went ahead and filed it because it wont interfere with VR business.

How can anyone call themself a GNR fan but yet support the original members (who had an enormous role in creating what GNR was) getting fucked out of what is rightfully owed to them.

It doesnt make sense.

Im ?one of the biggest Axl nuttswingers in the history of the world but that doesnt change the contributions of the original band and it doesnt change what is right and wrong.

You would be surprised how lawyers manipulate the system. If a judge won't look at this case until after the November trial, the accusations could be used to strong arm axl in the original case, or at least make him look like someone with a penchant for defrauding his partners.

I haven't made any judgements about these cases. I have only read the brief from one side over one accusation. I would love to read the counterarguments from axl's side.

This is be fixed without going to court. Axl just has to make sure Slash and Duff get their checks. Just say it was an oversite. That simple.

No. I am just basing that on his actions through out the past. When he has had an opportunity to stick it to them, he has. If he had a legit way to take away their royalty checks, he would have undoubtedly done so within the past 10 years.

All I can say is that the Financial Aid Department at the University of Connecticut was overhauled one summer and I received my summer financial aid supportthe following October, almost five months late. It happens especially when the handlers change.

I can't rule out the possibility but neither can you. Avoid judgments.

That is not the case at all. If this was anything but a clerical on the part of the company, then S&D will certainly be looking for punitive damages. Cutting them a check for $92,000 post haste will not make this go away.

@ D

Remember the Jackson / McCartney thing? Jackson bought the Beatles catalogue (or large parts of it) for a sick amount of money. McCartney of course was still the writer, but didn't receive royalties as a WRITER. During that time, he got money from Beatles record sales as an ARTIST and PERFORMER, but not as a WRITER. While Jackson owned the rights, he also had saying in how the music was used commercially and what kind of products were released (Best Of, Videos etc.).

Now what has that to do with GN'R?

An awful lot, because Axl could be our Jacko in this case. I mean it's not like Slash and Duff presented the name (and whatnot else with it) to Axl on a silver plate, did they? How many times have you heard that story about how Axl FORCED them to sign over the name for MONEY or else he would leave the band? It's famous! Now take that "FORCED THEM" part away from that story (true or not, they DID sign away the name), and all you got left is SIGN AWAY FOR MONEY. Axl fucken BOUGHT the name and I doubt the name is all he bought.

were all GNR famns here, and i dont think anyone wants to see Slash or Duff filing bougus lawsuits, or Axl screwing them out of what is rightfully theyrs, and since none of us really has a clue as to whats going on cant we just leave the arguing to theyr lawyers??

It's very sad that at the moment, there's more lawsuits than MUSIC to talk about when it comes to GN'R.

 :'(
damn it axl...

if this is true...


goddamn, it would be a lot easier to be a fan to virtually ANY other artist out there right now.. i mean, there's musicians in worse legal shit than axl right now, but at least they put out fuckin' albums...

and nope i ain't goin' anywhere.

but i truly truly hope axl has some kind of defense to this..

Do you guys really believe duff and slash just found out about this last week. ?Give me a fukin break, This is a fuking joke.

I dont think its the same thing however Conny because The Beatles signed a shitty deal that gave the record label control over their publishing, it isnt as if John Lennon sold it to Jacko

the record label owned it and they never received publishing checks which is why McCartney wanted to buy it.


If Slash and Duff had signed away their publishing rights to Axl, they wouldve stopped getting checks in 92-93 or whenever they signed it but they didnt stop getting checks

they only stopped getting checks since Axl sold it to Sanctuary thus making Slash and Duff right in this case.

they may have signed over the name, but they didnt give up their publishing.


Plus even if it was a Beatles situation, the label wouldve auctioned the GNR catalogue and we wouldve heard a news release about it, since we didnt hear anything obviously the catalogue was owned by the band.

Ill give axl some benefit of the doubt and yeah I agree KillingVector that things get screwed up, but  Axl's check didnt get fucked up so why should Slash and Duff's?

but we will see, I hope Axl wouldnt intentionally try to screw him out of it.

It can be true since they only get four royalty checks a year (every three mons). So they found out in May, and maybe gave Axl a few months to see if it would come and it never did.

They didnt

they have been on tour, they havent been home to check their mail and believe it or not 92,000 isnt much to overlook and its beencoming regulary for 15 years so I guess u just get use to it being there.

They reported that they didnt get their FIRST QUARTER CHECK which covers the months of Jan,Feb,and March, so yeah they knew about it in April but had VR business to deal with, so now the tour is winding down, they have now the ample time to deal with it. ?they had tour dates and appearances so they couldnt afford a court apperance interfering, now they dont have to worry about that so thats why they waited till now.



Ill ask everyone on the board this

if someone took 92,000 from you, and tried to screw u out of 92,000 every 3 months, what would u do?

Forget your Idol unconditonal love for Axl

if someone did this to u, what would u do?

to quote John Shooter from Secret Window *whats right is right and whats fair is fair*

They had been off the road for about a month (from early july to early aughust) Why all of a sudden almost 2 months after they initially had a month off did they file a lawsuit? Seems like they want more publicity......

Chineseblues, throughout this whole thread you have been heavily leaning towards Axl. Do you know of some evidence we don't know?  Axl historically keeps trying to fock over Duff and Slash.  Just looking back in history, odds are that slash is right.  This isn't new.

Re-reading the article, it makes me laugh how naive AXl is to think Slash and Duff's highly skilled lawyers wouldnt notice this. Maybe because of some very cloudy fine print in the deal with Sanctuary, Axl now expects his plan to work to perfection.

Axl's defense may well be that his contract with Sanctuary states he has full control of the catalogue.

Bullshit they didnt know.

You do realize that it take, um....TIME, to properly look into this shit right? I'm sure their accountants know pretty much to the day when that check arrives, and probably makes the necessary phone calls if it doesn't arrive on time. Its not like Duff sobered up one morning and went 'oh duhhhh...um, where is my 92 grand?'. God you people are stupid sometimes. I'm sure this isn't some frivolous thing they decided on over a margarita.

No, you guys are naive to believe there statements.  But whatever the press says is 100% true right?  Whatever, I dont believe it for a second.

The obviousness of this fraud is what bothers me. Would Axl think he could stop the royalty payments to Slash and Duff all of a sudden and do it in the shadow of a civil trial in November?

Axl is either one of the dumbest in a long line of dumb rockers or something else is wrong. who would think they could steal royalties from one of the most successful albums in history and get way with it?

 Once again, the time frame is important because now these allegations can be brought up in the November trial.

If Axl knowing did this he is wrong but maybe Saucuary screwed up. Lets wait for them to comment.

I can't help but lean towards this being some kind of clerical/procedural snafu due to the deal Axl cut with Sanctuary.?

Until we get some sort of hardcore evidence pointing otherwise I'm going to go on that assumption.

Hell, if it is proved Axl did this with malicious intent, maybe he'll have to let CD go to help pay for punitive damages..

That's a pretty twisted silver lining...

who said that this lawsuit things will not delay the album ?
hun? hun??

Like Brain ( or tommy ) said some years ago... "the music is done" !!
thats the thing
the music is done... and I think the music is done before the 2002 tour and this shits is delaying the album !!

There's no such thing as bad press.  While I have just as much information as the rest of you, something is wrong for Slash and Duff to have not gotten their checks.  If it was as simple as a clerical oversight, the problem would have been resolved without a lawsuit.  Don't you think that their accountants and lawyers have contacted Sanctuary or whomever has the publishing rights?  I for one hope this is an intentional publicity stunt by Axl to increase the interest of GN'R following VR and Greatest Hits to make a better market for Chinese Democracy.
  I don't know what's going on, but Axl isn't stupid and he had to know Slash and Duff would take notice when the checks they have been getting since at least 96/97 when they broke up quit coming.  This has to be alot more complex than we understand, but all will be revealed in the future.  D is 100% right about this.  Slash and Duff are just as important to the back catalog as Axl and they deserve royalties to the music they helped create.  If Axl tried to fuck them over, he deserves everything he gets.  I'm a huge Axl supporter, but IF he tried to pull one over on them, he's gonna be in some deep shit.

am I the only one that finds that horribly funny?

The major question is did Axl cash that 92,000 check. If he did then maybe he did know. But if its not cashed yet then it could have been a simple error.

"only last week did they discover" .... ONLY LAST WEEK?? ???? ? FUCK!!!! Even I've known about that publishing deal for months now!!!


Besides Miskel's insinuations, how would we (or they) know if Axl even got his check? ??

February 1st, 2005 (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1288) - Axl Rose Publishing Deal Fuels Feud

[...] McKagan's lawyer, Glen Miskel, expressed surprise when told of the Sanctuary deal. He said Rose, Slash and Duff were part of a partnership and "neither Sanctuary nor Axl Rose have provided the remaining partners with a copy of that agreement." He added Rose is trying to transfer copyright interests in songs which "are not owned by Mr. Rose."

--

Like they really sat on it for nearly six months.

So Duff's lawyer agrees that slash, duff, and axl were part of a partnership. Doesn't this counter their claim that Axl left the partnership?

Thats what I was thinking.

 

He suspected this was going on in February, but they noticed it had happened last week.

That's six months.

Interesting....


Would be interesting to hear the other side of the story, but since Sanctuay didn't comment the story, I guess we won't.



/jarmo

I think Duffs lawyer is ackowledging that until that lawsuit is settled, Axl is still viewed as part of the partnership.


The timeline is a little confusing, but even if he suspected it in February, it apparently didnt hapen until the end of May, so its more like 3 months.

"They're seeking damages for fraud, copyright infringement and breach of fiduciary duty, among other things."


Slash and Duffs paycheck is in Axl's Black Frog bank account. Noone but Axl has access to that company because Axl owns it. Black Frog is probably just a computer at his house, because we know Axl doesnt release music with that label.

My guess is that they didn't realize that they weren't gonna get checks until fairly recently...and it took a while for their investigation/paperwork to come through.

I wonder if Axl somehow set himself up to be shielded from breaking the law, etc. Like, when people set up a Limited Liablity Company (LLC) so that IT (the LLC) becomes that which people would sue, not the individual person. In a real world example, if a guy owns a restaurant, and people leaving that restaurant drunk get into an accident and kill people, then the families of the victim have to sue the restaurant (LLC), not the owner. Make sense?

So is it possible that Black Frog Ent and Sanctuary are "responsible," and not Axl?

I'm not a lawyer but I think its an interesting point.

~KYI

I wonder if they asked for an explanation or for it to be fixed before going to court.

Also, it would be interesting to know if/how this is connected to the other lawsuit.




/jarmo

I would bet that Slash & Duff's lawyers would want it brought up in the November trial.  If 1108 can subject MJ to suffer the humiliation of past alleged molestation acts perhaps the civil code allows the admission of past alleged fraud allegations.

The mountain of shit is building over axl right now. He may have to hire Harvey Birdman to pull off some miracle defense.

another sad day for gnr.

anyways , part of me doesnt believe for a second that axl's team of lawyers and sanctuarys team of lawyers would do something this stupid if they werent 100% sure they had some concrete evidence that proves they are "in the right" .... either way , somebody from "the old band" , be axl or S&D is gunna get fucked bad from this one when all is said and done.

This will bring music back to prominence though


Imagine when Axl does release GNR

its a 2pac vs Notorious BIG feud times 100


think of the interviews once axl gets going, its gonna be amazing to read that stuff.

I think SLash and Duff werent gonna say anything as long as they got their checks, but remember u dont get checks every month.

they receive them for each quarter which is every 3 months

so their first check was probably due to arrive in April. So they were on tour and out of respect for Scott and Dave they decided to wait till after the tour and everything to get involved in this so as to not take away attention from the tour.



I just wonder if they got their 2nd quarter check which wouldve been due in July?

I wish there was something in the article and lawyer's statements that answered the following:

1) Was ASCAP sending out ONE royalty check to the Member Publisher (Company) "Guns N' Roses"/"Guns N' Roses Music" (aka "Guns N' Roses ASCAP)?
2) If so, how was that check being distributed? ?Who was administering it?

I was reading through their site and Member Writers apply individually, whereas Member Publishers apply as a company. ?
If you look at the ASCAP Publisher Member applicaiton ?http://www.ascap.com/reference/publisherapp.pdf  (http://www.ascap.com/reference/publisherapp.pdf) a company must be named, and if that company is a partnership the partner's names must be listed. ?

In the case of Member Writers, upon registering a song/title/work which is the product of collaboration, the apportionment of shares must be indicated at time of registration. ?ASCAP then distributes the royalties accordingly. ?Since it only specifies Member Writers in this rule, that would lead me to believe that it does not apply to Member Publishers ?Now back to the articles - The article only references publishing royalties. ?Also there is only one amount noted... seemingly a single check for $92,000.

I return to my question: ?Is this a one lump sum check per quarter payable to the Member Publisher? ?Who was it going to? ?Who was distributing it?

If you look again at the ASCAP Publisher Member applicaiton ?http://www.ascap.com/reference/publisherapp.pdf  (http://www.ascap.com/reference/publisherapp.pdf) (and read the referenced 'rules'), ASCAP sends the royalties to the party/ address indicated on the Publisher Member's Application. ?The company/party &/ address originally indicated for ASCAP to send royalties to was likely "Guns N' Roses"/"Guns N' Roses Music" - the same comapny/partnership that Slash and Duff are claiming that Axl has no rights in. ?
Further down on the application form and you'll notice that at time of application a person, ONE PERSON, is to be designated as the publisher's representative FOR ALL PURPOSES. Ths person would be able to change to who/where the royalties were paid/sent. ?. ?In order for Axl to do this, he would have to be the person named as the designated representative.

Of course this is all speculation. ?We don't have any real or specific information.

The article doesn't relate any indication or comment from the lawyer that it could be a simple 'delay'.
They are saying outright that Axl committed fraud to divert money that they should have recievied into his own pockets.

Whether somehow something Axl did is delaying, hindering, or preventing the distribution of publishing royalties to them, or not - it has put them(S&D) on the defense. ?They are being forced to bring a case in which they have to prove their rights. ?In the prior lawsuit their case is built soley on attempting to disprove Axl's rights. Pehaps it can be expected that in thier presenting evidence that they have rights, they will present evidence that shows they ALL THREE have rights - and in doing so will negate thier previous case against Axl. ?

Who knows, this could be just the sort of situaion that will leverage a settlement in which they drop their suits with the assurance that the smooth flow of royalty checks will follow. ?

That's a best-case scenerio.

Worst-case scenerio is Axl going to jail for committing fraud.

i think axl needs to call the President or Get the FBI
or at least the Private Eye ;D

According to this they only found out about it last week:


I believe that they contacted some people in ASCAP and they found out what happened.


However this sounds like bullshit to me. That transaction made a huge buzz over the music industry, and the only ones who never heard about it are the ones who should know everything about it?

And think about it this way. The way they are presenting it, it smells lots of money to be made out of a lawsuit.

We know how lawyers work, especially in these cases. They might have told lots of shit to Slash and Duff just to make them go to court...

I honestly don't know who to believe.

   Some people have said the only way we'd see CD or Axl touring again is if he lost his money...is this a possibility now?  Legal costs add up.  This whole mess may be a blessing in disguise.  However, it's official, we won't see Chinese Denocracy this year...if ever.

Axl4Prez2004   :'(

this album will never come out  :crying:

i was thinking the exact same thing

I think you hit the nail on the head when brining up the connection to the other lawsuit.

I surmise this is all based on the issues brought to light in that first suit, and just who owns the rights to the back catalog.? What I think Axl and Sanctuary may be doing is, in light of that litigation, putting the royalties in a sort of "escrow" account, pending the results of the initial suit.? Until the rights are clearly defined by the court, I'll bet, Axl's assertion is that no one gets paid a dime.? Since he has, up to now, acted as the "gaurdian" if you will of the catalog, he is continuing to do so.

Also, by doing this, I think he's attempting to set legal precedent that he has now, and in the past, had full control over the catalog.? A legal wrangling to help his position in the initial action, if true.

And finally, it could also be  a "hardball" tactic from Axl's legal team, possibly trying to force some sort of settlement in the initial action...sort of holding the money "hostage" until the initial suit is resolved.

And if Slash and Duff's lawyers didn't see this coming back in February...they should be fired.  Though I also suspect the lawyers are the ones who "convinced" Slash and Duff to file the initial suit, seing some sort of loophole that wasn't notice previously.

Just My two cent's, publishing right's is one thing, and the royalties for that belong to sanctuary, because they bought it, and Axl must ?owned them he did sell them and Slash n Duf didn't put a "|restraining order" on the contract, i aspected they would considering the pending claim they've got an Axl for buying the name GNR.
Another thing is intelectual property, author right's, the two right's can or not belong to some entity (Beatles did), GNR no.
So, ?92.000 is the amount for what? publishing right's and author right's? for author right's alone?
does ASAP or whatever start's paying money to the wrong people because someone told them to do so and the former beneficieries (several separated entities) are not informed? Are you kiding? I can't believe that that's how you do business in America.
More likely? The SnD lawyer probably tried an out of court ?understanding with sanctuary and Axl for his clients to get some money on the publishing right's sell, that didn't go well so he put them in court again. It's a nice way to pressure for an agreement without going to court if the other part is not going for it, a good point in that direction is when a lawyer instead of reaching for the law to make is point is going for a public weak spot, altought most people do the most horrific things to former friends, relatives and business associatives for the right amount of money, we all like to think that we're better than that and wouldn't double cross a friend. When public image is very important to someone that's one sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet spot to go for.
Is it possible that we do not have an american ou english lawyer in this board? ?:confused:
Believe me laywers should love these guy's, it's a lawyers dream ...actually i know a few that would keep Axl, Slash n Duf fighting for the rest of their lives and their weirs too.
My former boss, a laywer, said that the good laywer is the one who trnasform's a friendly divorce in a walk to the poor house....for the clients of course, after paying for legal cost's there should be nothing to divide.
Take that in consideration.

Feb

Another thing to keep in mind is that if the new royalty money is coming from any part of Sanctuary, it may not be coming for one reason-they are going bankrupt!!!!!! Sanctuary is a sinking ship-at least parts of it. I do think they have a strong management roster. Over on the velvet rope, many posters are saying they have multiple outstanding invoices from Sanctuary. I don't know specifics but I'm just throwing that out there. I also said a while ago that this lawsuit is going to be a major problem for Axl because he insists on using the name. If you don't think this affects Chinese, then you are living in a dream world. Pilferk, I think it is actually Slash and Duff that are making the major power play here. They are really putting more and more pressure on Axl to resolve this entire mess. You guys crack me up about a reunion....yeah, they'll be reuniting alright, in court or in a fight to the death cage match!.....Get in the Ring! :peace:

That was nowhere in any reports of the Sanctuary deal that I had seen when all this was being reported!? They never say they didn't know about the Sanctuary deal only that they didn't know he had switched from the original publishing company over into a company he himself owned.

Thanks for trying to answer my question, jabba2, but I don't think I asked it right.? What I'm trying to find out is that with all the "privacy" laws, how would someone (SnD) know if someone else (Axl) was paid anything unless that person (Axl) released that info himself?? I don't know how the laws in California work but I don't believe that people can access someone else's financial records without a court order of some kind.
 

According to the article, the dispute is for publisher rights. ?according to ASCAP, there are two types of members: ?Publisher Members, and Writer Members. ?What you refer to as 'author's rights' would be handled through the Writer Member's membership.
Writer Members works which are the product of collaboration must indicate apportionments of royalties at the time the work is registered. ?Writer Members are individuals. ?Publisher Members are companies. ?i.e. "Guns N' Roses"/"Guns N' Roses Music"
(i posted a link to the ASCAP info in my previous post which is on the previous page of this thread)





According to ?the info on ASCAP's site, NO, the Publisher Member is a company and the Publisher Membership application includes the designation of a person to act as the publisher's representative "for all purposes". ?ASCAP would make changes only at the request of this designated representative.

So who was the designated representative for the Guns N' Roses ASCAP Publisher Member?

Apparently, based on what the article says about Axl requesting the change, and ASCAP's doing so, that designated representative is Axl.


His being the designated representative, goes further to demonstrate that he is in possession of rights which Slash and Duff are seekig to deny in the initial action.....


whether intentional or not - i believe it has had this effect.


I agree, as I stated in my previous post, if Axl's action demonstrates that he is the designated representative and in control of Guns N' Roses ASCAP Publisher Membership (which it seems he is), then Slash and Duff may be motivated to relinquish their claims in the first suit in exchange for a settlement in this action.

Gypsy, they may have gotten the info from discovery in the other lawsuit. I'm sure that S/D's atty's requested Axl to produce his income streams from the Gnr back catalog. Just assuming.

Here is the latest on the Sanctuary buyout and financial situation. It looks like they won't be bought out in the immediate future-possibly a good sign for Axl. However, they have a lot of debt problems. In regards to Chinese, the second lawsuit will not complicate things anymore than the first. It is simply S/D broadening their claims. Same atty's on both I am sure. :'(

http://www.billboard.com/bb/biz/index.jsp

Another page into the tragic saga of GNR.  Axl never runs out ways to disappoint his fans.  I hope someday all this bullshit ends and we get a reunion.  When the hell is Axl going to give the fans any good news?  Someone answer me that question, because it is just one disapointment after another.  He is a rock genius, but he has let us down time and time again.

And this I think is the key point here. Slash and Duff want this latest case to be further evidence of fraud, axl could possibly be demonstrating that he has always been considered part of the partnership of the old catalog.

I wonder though if slash and duff are crying fraud because of the switch to Black Frog Ltd, apparently a company owned by Axl. Since he would have some control over the funds and Slash and Duff did not receive their checks, perhaps this is the basis of the fraud allegation. As someone said, if Axl is countersuing S and D and challenging their stake in the partnership, because as axl is apparently alleging that S and D left the partnership when they bolted GnR, he is withholding the monies until the first lawsuit is resolved. A very salient point and worth consideration.

I cannot believe though that Axl would be so cavilier as to block the rightful payout to S and D in such a public and easily detected manner. There is definately more beneath the skin.

Exactly how is AXL disappointing the fans on this one? SLASH and DUFF have been lawsuit happy for a long while. You're making a judgement based on a bare-bones article that is one-sided and far from complete. This sounds like leverage for the existing lawsuit - filed by S&D. I realize you've got reasons to be bitter, but really, if anyone is to blame here I'd say it's lawyers.

People in this thread passing judgement based on an MTV blurb - get a clue, please. Buy one, borrow one, fucking steal one. But then I guess news is so slow lately, we need to harp about something.

But back to reality - you all seem to think this is personally the work of Axl. I've got news for you, if anyone is to blame here, it's lawyers and accountants and labels. Axl's number crunchers I'm sure told him it was a good idea to make this deal, and the money-grubbers are more than likely behind this mixup. Or some smartass lawyer who thinks he's found a loophole.

Or it's S/D posturing to help their initial suit.

Does this fuck things up for CD? Maybe.

Do I care about lawsuits in this band anymore? No.

I've seen zero that had any merit, besides the attempt to block the GH CD which I'll never buy.

No offense, but I think you're jumping the gun here.  We've only heard Duff and Slash's side, so don't know for certain that Axl did anything wrong and/or deliberately malicous towards them.

Sanctuary and/or Axl will have to present their side of things sooner or later.  After they do that, then everyone can give a fully informed opinion on the case.

I agree with the notion that it is tragic.  Regardless of where culpability lies, this is a sad thing.

Ali

Its fucked up when a website about your favorite band becomes a legal forum.  The majority (including MTV) would not give 2 shits about any of this if CD was released. :rant:

I'd like to think Axl was creating a stir in order to prepare for a massive comeback, but I accept in reality thats unlikely.

Kyrie, nice post ;D pure posturing on the part of Slash and Duff...upping the ante  on Mr. Rose a few months before the first case goes to trial. Good timing. Any coincidence that rumors have been alluding to a Nov release date for Chinese and now this lawsuit comes a few months before? TURNING UP THE HEAT.

thanks go out to BigBoss at sp1at for posting this:

Office: Western Division - Los Angeles
Filed: 08/17/2005
Jury Demand: Plaintiff
Demand:
Nature of Suit: 820
Cause: 17:0101 Copyright Infringement
Jurisdiction: Federal Question
Disposition:
County: Los Angeles
Terminated:
Origin: 1
Reopened:

Lead Case: None
Related Case: None Other Court Case: None
Def Custody Status:
Flags: (PLAx), AO279, DISCOVERY

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Tiffany Hofeldt Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Glendon W Miskel Phone: 415-332-0222

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Zia F Modabber Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Joel R Weiner Phone: 310-788-4400
Email: joel.weiner@kmzr.com

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Tiffany Hofeldt Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Glendon W Miskel Phone: 415-332-0222

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Zia F Modabber Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Joel R Weiner Phone: 310-788-4400
Email: joel.weiner@kmzr.com

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Tiffany Hofeldt Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Glendon W Miskel Phone: 415-332-0222

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Zia F Modabber Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Joel R Weiner Phone: 310-788-4400
Email: joel.weiner@kmzr.com

Defendant William Bailey
Defendant Black Frog Music
Defendant Kobalt Music Publishing America Inc
Defendant Kobalt Music Services America Inc
Defendant Kobalt Songs Music Publishing
Defendant Does

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


08/17/2005 1 COMPLAINT against defendants William Bailey, Black Frog Music, Kobalt Music Publishing America Inc, Kobalt Music Services America Inc, Kobalt Songs Music Publishing.(Filing fee $ 250) Jury Demanded. , filed by plaintiffs Guns N Roses, Saul Hudson, Michael McKagan.(rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 20 Day Summons Issued re Complaint - (Discovery)[1] as to William Bailey, Black Frog Music, Kobalt Music Publishing America Inc, Kobalt Music Services America Inc, Kobalt Songs Music Publishing. (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 2 CERTIFICATION AND NOTICE of Interested Parties filed by Plaintiffs Guns N Roses, Saul Hudson, Michael McKagan. (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 REPORT ON THE FILING OF AN ACTION REGARDING COPYRIGHT (cc: form mailed to Washington, D.C.) (Opening) (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 FAX number for Attorney Tiffany Hofeldt, Zia F Modabber, Joel R Weiner is 310-788-4471. (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/18/2005 3 STANDING ORDER by Judge Consuelo B. Marshall. Read This Order Carefully. It Controls Procedures Used in This Case.(pbap, ) (Entered: 08/22/2005)

-------------------------------------------------

As you can see Slash and Duff are suing under the gnr name. Now as we all know Axl owns the name, so why are try suing under it? ???

Maybe as part of the theory that S and D are the old partnership and Axl is a third party acting as if he were a member. This seems to be an extension of the first lawsuit: if S and D win in November, the axe will fall in this case because axl wouldn't have the right to any control over the old catalog.


btw, the members of Black Frog Music are surpising.

"Included in the lawsuit are Black Frog, a company allegedly consisting of Del James, members of the Lebeis family and Axl Rose himself."----Splat

It is Del, Ax, and Beta.

Axl owns Black Frog. It's just him and his buddies who "work" for it.

It's been around for a while but no-one mentions it as it hasn't been significant.

sorry for my ignorance but where is Izzy in all this did he not write a lot of the songs etc surely he gets royalties too

I believe he gets writing royalties but since he left the band, i.e. the partnership, he is not entitled to the publishing royalties.  Since this dispute is over the publishing of the old catalog, only those who are part of the partnership of the old band, which S and D contend is only them, could have a vote in selling or moving the publishing arm of the band to some other group. I was under the impression that Axl sold HIS publishing rights only; the fact that Black Frog Music presides over the distribution of  S and D's royalties is a bit disconcerting.

Here is something to ponder. What if Axl has proof that Slash and Duff are no in the partnership thus that is why he did this. We have still yet to see Axls hand.? For all we know Axl has a royal flush and Slash and Duff are not due royalities. Just imagine if Axl had that and counter sued Duff and Slash for money they owe him.

ok so whats the difference between writing royalties and publishing royalties ?:confused:

Eva is the expert on that issue. She has written a beautiful post on the differences.

I think writing royalites is when you get money when other people use the song since you wrote it.
Publishing royalities is that you have the right to sell the song to make money off it.

Kobalt is a very respected company, known for fast and efficient collection of royalties due the artists. I wonder if being behind 2 quarters in royalty distribution is common if the publishing arm is moved from one company to another.

Notice

http://www.kobaltmusic.com/clients.php


Kobalt's client list doesn't say GnR only Axl Rose........hmmmmmm

There are 3 GNR trademarks that are currently still alive, all acknowledging Slash, Duff and Axl are collectively entitled to anything GNR-related:

Trademark 1 - "Guns N' Roses" name, as used for selling merchandise containing name "Guns N' Roses"

Trademark 2 - "Guns N' Roses" name, as used by a musical group in performance


Trademark 3 - "Guns N' Roses" name, as used for selling pre-recorded albums and records

What is the relationship between the trademark and the publication rights of GnR materials?  At least for this latest lawsuit, the power over the publication rights is being questioned. Axl is listed on all 3, the question is whether this is evidence that he didn't leave the partnership.

Does 2003 05 04 under renewal means they ran out in 2003?

I think it just means they renewed the trademark agreement.

Well if that is true how can Duff and Slash claim Axl left the partnership in 96?

the wording in the posted portion of the claim filed is EXTREMELY interesting.

Slash and Duff are representing themselves to be "Guns N' Roses"

This suit will no doubt force them to present evidence that they are "Guns N' Roses"
The first suit, which claims Axl left/quit "Guns N' Roses", ask for declarative relief -
They are petitioning the court to declare Slash and Duff as the only partners in Guns N' Roses. 
There doing so acknowledges that the current known status of "Guns N' Roses" does not recognize them as sole partners.
Yet they're basing this case on that unestablished premise which is yet to be ruled on.

This brings me back to my previous line of questioning.
Who was receiving the royalty check from ASCAP and distributing it before - through all these years?
Perhaps when the partnership was formed, and the ASCAP terms initiated, there was an agent agreed upon by the members of Guns N' Roses Partnership that would distribute the royalties to the partners. 
Perhaps it was the attorney who served Guns N' Roses at that time.  Who was that?

anyhow in the absence of Guns N' Roses partnership agreement, i been reading through the Uniform Partnrship Act.
I'll share some of it with you guts once I figure it out!  :P
here's a link to it: 
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:nL7ey-MGmCsJ:www.law.washington.edu/courses/kummert/A514_Su05/Documents/25.05.pdf+revised+uniform+partnership+act&hl=en&start=10

and this bar exam question and answer touches on some interesting points regarding dissolution of a partnership
question:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:QnrIh5z8PtMJ:www.alaskabar.org/BarExamResources/Feb2004BusinessLawQ6.pdf+quitting+a+partnership&hl=en&start=3

answer:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:FUt_3vl9l_YJ:www.alaskabar.org/BarExamResources/Feb2004BusinessLawGG.pdf+quitting+a+partnership&hl=en&start=2

Guys u all are trying to make this too difficult.


Listen, Duff and Slash received their checks all the way up till December 2004 but stopped receiving them once Axl sold the publishing to sanctuary.

1+1=2 guys, its very simple

either Axl is fucking them out of their money illegally or it was an oversight on Sanctuary's books.


Its that simple

Had Slash and Duff had no longer been in the partnership their checks wouldve stopped coming as soon as they signed the name away to Axl but they didnt stop therefore signaling that they are still entitled to royalties.

The royalties they are talking about are from catalogue sells of every GNR album

u get a check every quarter based on the record sales of albums in which u have songwriting credits.

so everytime time AFD,Lies,UYI 1 and 2,TSI,Live Era and now the Greatest Hits sells, they get percentages.

Any money received for a GNR song being on a soundtrack,used in a commercial or what have you, is split between the members *see orginal lawsuit*

Bottom line is Axl is trying to control GNR 100 percent and even though he owns the name and can use that name anyway he sees fit, the albums and catalogue of songs still belong to the orginal band


its this simple everyone, no need to make it more difficult than it already is.

D no you are missing the point. Slash and Duff are suing Axl claming he is not in the partnership, yet it says in 2003 all three of them renewed the contracts thus Axl is still in the partnership, if Axl was not then it would have just said Duff and Slash.  No one knows why Slash and Duff did not get their checks, we will find out soon but the fact remains duff and slash want control of the  back catalog and claim axl has no say in it, when in fact all three still have a say in it.

You are contradicting yourself, u said they all three have a say in it so why is axl allowed to sell the publishing without their consent

Read the lawsuit one more time, this one is about the song publishing, it has nothing to do with the partnership

all the parntership does is say how the songs can be used, just like the Nirvana partnership that they have with Courtney Love, all members have to agree on how the songs are used  BUT


EVEN IF dUFF AND sLASH ARENT IN A PARTNERSHIP WITH aXL, THEY STILL KEEP THEIR PUBLISHING RIGHTS

THAT DOESNT CHANGE REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS.

This has nothing to do with the other lawsuit, I think Axl will win that one, but he doesnt have a prayer with this one.

Axl has the right to sell HIS SHARES of the publishing rights. That is what he probably thought he did. Look at that link that KV gave, it says they have the publishing rights to Axl Rose NOT guns n roses or Axl, slash and Duff.
There is a difference. Axl can sell his shares to whom ever he wants they are his.

There was probaly just some mix up when the checks were getting sent out.

Axl has a prayer with this one as long as Axl can prove it was a mix up and that is why he got the check for slash and duff too. Its really simple that it could have been a clarical error.  We will have to wait and see on this one.

Dave, trust me, you don't file suit in Federal Court over a clerical error. There is alot more to this than meets the eye. D, it is not a simple case either. Unless Axl has some form of personal insurance to cover these type of things, he is going to be paying an astronomical amount of attorney fees plus risking the loss of the lawsuit. A lot of money is at stake here.  :-\

This is not a "clerical error".  If that were the case, there would have been no need to file the lawsuit.  I'm pretty sure they did a thorough investigation before they proceeded with this lawsuit.

I second whoever said this most likely has come from things found during "discovery" for the civil case in November. They most likely got their hands on information that otherwise wouldn't have seen.

Also, I question how air-tight any of Axl's counter-claims are in this case because if he had a pair of pocket ace's his legal team would have shown up at the last hearing to try and get the case thrown out. No lawyer prefers going to trial if they don't have to, and their absence at the last hearing leads one to believe they have resigned themselves to the fact they have a serious battle on their hands.

If things were 100% factually otherwise, we would have seen an attempt to have this thrown out already. If I remember correctly, S&D's legal team was making a big deal at one point about Axl's failure to produce certain documents during discovery, it could be entirely possible Axl has something to hide as typically you don't stonewall if you don't have a reason to.

Things are just getting interesting.

 S and D are suing Kobalt. Kobalt collects and distributes artist royalties. If there was a problem with the distribution, S and D would go after the distributor which is what they are doing. They are alleging that Axl turned over the collection process to Kobalt without their knowledge and tried to hide this fact. This was the first alleged fraud.

 S and D then claim that the monies that were go to S and D were given to Axl.  This is the second fraud.

 However, according to Kobalt, the publishing royalties of AXL ROSE were collected. It says nothing of Slash and Duff. It begs the question, is Kobalt collecting for Guns N Roses or just Axl.


I really wonder, as eva pointed out, where S and D were getting their checks before and why they believe that now Kobalt should give them their checks now. It could be possible that this is a huge misunderstanding between the parties

I agree that this is an extension of the first suit. I believe S and D filed this suit under the understanding that a win in the first case will almost assure victory in the second. Axl cannot sell what he doesn't legally own. If he hid details of the sale from his partners, that would constitute a fraud.

Sad, ain't it? A group of guys come up from the streets together, change rock and roll forever, fade away on a Stones cover and spend the rest of their days suing each other.

Not very rock and roll at all.

How could they do a thurough investigation when they only found out about it last week?  ::)

I'm sure they have know that the accountants have been looking into this for some time. That's what accountants do. It probably wasn't until last week that they finally got to the bottom of what was going on.

Sheesh you people act like Axl, Slash and Duff just kind of let the mail pile up while they are on tour and then sort out the checks with an abacus when they get home. ?::)

This whole saga should also serve as a public service announcement as to why band names are typically carried on by a lone surviving member.

All of this crap that has gotten in the way of an album release would have been a non-issue if it weren't for Axl's insistance on calling his band GNR. S&D know they are making his life difficult, and they will continue to do so and can because they are still tied to that band in one way shape or form as long as it is called GNR. If the new band were called the Blue Frogs, they would not be trying so hard to get at Axl. That is for certain.

I think this all goes back to the loss of the Gnr name. S and D have now turned GnR into a two headed beast: the old band (original partnership) and the new band (Axl) . They lost the name but are desperately trying to get control of the back catalog. All along both men said they regretted the deal and were looking for ways to recoup. I truly believe both of these suits spring from an enormous amount of regret over losing that name.

It absolutely does. Axl's problem is that he is still too intertwined with them to ever do some of the things he wants to do with GNR and everything that goes with it. That is why I have no sympathy for him in regards to this whole saga. He knew by calling his band that name he was inviting these types of problems.

Were S&D stupid to sign away the name, absolutely. In their defense though, I don't think they thought Axl would ever call a new band by that name even though he was the lone remaining member of the band.

 ?Guys and gals...how do you think the new hired Guns will take this news? ?I mean, if it's as bad as it looks at first glance, do you really want to be releasing an album with someone who may do this to you in the future? ?Maybe this deserves a new thread, I don't know, but damn, personally, I'd be pretty cautious if I were Robin, Tommy, Richard, or Brain. ?Any thoughts?

-Axl4Prez2004 ? :-[ ?(yeah, this news is embarrassing, and what's worse, is that Axl won't say anything in public) ? :no:

Were they each supposed to get $92,000 or was the $92,000 supposed to be divided up between them?

Axl I think is fucked.? I'm in kinda sucessful regional rock band and me and my bassist are the "leaders" I suppose of the group.? We handle our publishing issues through ASCAP.? every quarter we get a few bucks for our songs being played on the radio and other things.? We publish, my bassist and I, through our company, and the money is sent to the companies name through ASCAP.? We cash the check that is addressed to the company name into our company bank account.? Because the check is addressed to the company, not through us.? So, if I was to decide to be a dick, I could contact ASCAP, change our company to a company that I was the sole owner of, thereby screwing my bass player, and keeping the funds for myself.? I'm sure GNR is more complicated then our situation, but by Axl selling rights to Sanctuary, GNRs original publishing company is now non-existent, therefor, no money to S and D. Now, if I would to pull that shit, my bass player would, and should, sue the ever-loving fuck out of me and I probably would go to jail for fraud.?

The fact of the matter remains, S and D wrote the music and some lyric for those tunes and deserve the money.? If Axl did indeed intend to defraud those guys of there money, he deserve to be fucked monetarily.? If S and D did not get their money, it won't be because ASCAP or whoever screwed it up.? It'll be because of Axl.?

because good lawyers make sure there isn't an error before proceeding with a lawsuit.  I'm pretty sure they checked out for any clerical errors ::)

Is it possible to break up the publishing so that separate checks were written for Axl and Slash & Duff?

Its obvious that the three of them are a partnership, not a corporation, how Axl pulled this off is beyond me.? Our situation is an easy way of me screwing my bassist, since I am the one that started our publishing company.? That still doesnt mean that its legal.? The money has been seperated to the 3 of them for the past 20 years. The fact that S and D are not getting their money is not an "error", ASCAP does a great job of getting their clients their money.? Thats the reason they are the best and everyone uses them. They issue the funds to the proper company that the three of them set up years ago.? They are a non-profit organization.? No, someone has been very naughty, and it isn't S and D.

S and D are suing Kobalt too, an established and respected royalty collection company. I would doubt they would fall for such a bait and switch tactic by Axl. Obviously, they are now forced to defend themselves.

Thats where it gets complicated for me, I'm not signed, yet, to a label so i don't have to deal with all of this stuff.? Fact of the matter is, publishing is where the money is.?  One of the first rules to getting signed is trying to keep your copyrights, and more importantly, the publishing. If you don't do that, you will NEVER make any money in music.  Youll be a whore who only makes money for the record label. ? Thats the bulk of your money.? If Slash and Duff or no longer getting their pay, then something is very fucked-up.? And good luck to S and D on getting their money back.

Yo Thorazine, dont let your bassist read this :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:



Have any of u read the lawsuit over?

Duff and Slash are also charging Axl of transferring the publishing from ASCAP to the new one which violates Slash and Duff's intellectual property.

So Axl cant just sell his share of the publishing because the publishing is a whole


Axl gets his cut, Slash and Duff get their cuts but Axl got not only his share but Slash and Duff's share as well.

Axl cannot sell anything to do with the catalog without approval from Slash and Duff and vice versa which is the original lawsuit.

So Axl couldnot have sold to sanctuary without the approval of Slash and Duff.

maybe Slash and Duff said nothing when it first happened cause maybe they didnt know how it worked and thought Axl sold just his share but when their checks didnt come, they then realized he sold the entire share without their approval.

If Duff and SLash didnt get their first Quarter check, u can guarantee they also didnt get their second quarter check either since they wouldve already.

Axl is in serious fucking trouble from the looks of this. I dont like it anymore than any other Axl loyalist but I just cant spin this positively for Axl.

Well, thanks for the synopsis.  and I guess in a nutshell thats what i was trying to explain and I agree with you 100%  Its sound like what Axl has done is illegal and as much as I respect Axl, this is about as bad as you can screw your old bandmates.  the publishing are S and D's "lifeline" and I don't think even God can help Axl right now.  Yea I won't show this to my bass player, If we ever get signed that fucker might pull this shit on me! :hihi: :rofl:

what a lawyer you are, having decided the case without ever seeing the evidence for and against the claim. For all we know, S and D did receive their checks and are pulling a legal strongarm tactic. It has been done before. As for your theory, I doubt very much you or anyone else have the slightest clue about the nature or merit of the arguments in this case. I would suggest you to reserve judgement until you hear more.

Maybe their claim have woken up a sleeping dog. or two.
That "Axl left the partnership" letter could have another meaning that would reverse the previous assumption. If so, S n D's little attempt to produce any corroborative data advantageous to the main complaint boomerangs.


Also, why "William Bailey" this time?

Like other people said, Perhaps with Guns n' roses they mean the partnership in this case.
they are suing Black frog music and Kobalt on behalf of the GN'R partnership that consists of them and Axl as Axl, I guess. While William Bailey stands for Axl of black frog music?

Sorry if someone already mentioned this and that. :P

I don't understand something.

Okay, Axl sold HIS share of the back catelogue to Sanctuary.

So, if there are any decisions to be made, it's between Sanctuary, Duff, Slash.

So if Sanctuary is on the verge of going bankrupt, and Axl sold his share of the publishing to Sanctuary, why would he create a dummy company?

Could the sanctuary deal already be null and void.............and we just don't know it is? ?Maybe because of the $$ problems with Sanctuary, there was a clause that stated Axl would have full ownership if Sanctuary ever went under?

I am confused ???

I can see why Axl would put money in escrow like Pilferk suggested.............and not pay anyone until all this is settled........kinda like hold it in ransom to fuck with Slash and Duff..........but I won't believe Axl is purposedly frauding them. ?That is ridiculous. ?

I am sure Axl has all his legal options covered and for him to remain silent is really the best because he'll never reveal his next move so it's like he's playing checkmate.

Where does ASCAP fit in with Sanctuary?

Edit from previous post to say that if Axl got his share of the back catelogue from Sanctuary back then he set up Black Frog and Kobalt?

Kobalt is a royalty collection service with a diverse clientele. They are responsible for distributing the monies to their clients and are known as both an efficient and meticulous collector of publication and authored royalites. Axl Rose is listed as a client of Kobalt; GnR and Slash & Duff are not. There is a possibility Axl was trying to collect royalties individually as opposed to as part of a single GnR entity and something was screwed up in the process. Who knows.

But since they are named in the suit, I find it hard to believe they would get sucked into an obvious attempt by Axl to defraud his partners. I would need to see more evidence that it was a deliberate act because at face value, it makes no sense.

If Kobalt didnt stop Axl from getting in the way of D&S royalties, then they should be held responsible. And thats why they are named in the suit. S&D are basically telling Kobalt "You had a chance to clear this up. And now you know what could happen the second time Axl might try this".

All the people mentioning the GNR name as being involved in the lawsuit, it isnt true. Though i wish Axl could come up with another name, because current GNR clearly isnt working. Its all about the past with that band...including Axl.?

Which is precisely the reason why companies like this protect themselves from obvious attempts to commit fraud. I find it hard to believe Kobalt would sign up for this deal without investigating the nature of axl's contract. their legal team would be all over it.

Now Kobalts legal team is forced to be all over this. Though it is possible Axl snuck this under there noses.

If Axl received Slash and Duff's royalties and CASHED them............then yeah, I say it's fraud.


But that isn't the case because we have no idea since we just know of Slash and Duff's side.

I highly doubt Axl would do something as to purposedly fraud Slash and Duff.? And I would think knowing that Axl is involved or has been involved in a lot of legal proceedings, whoever takes him on as a client sure as fuck crosses all their t's and dots all their i's.

I still say that this is all an attempt by Slash and Duff to further delay Axl in moving forward with anything new with GNR because THEY can't let go of the past.............just go to a VR show and you'll see VR is their version of GNR.

And if I was missing a check for $92,000, I sure as fuck wouldn't have waited this long to "look into it".

on the contrary, that seems to be the EXACT definition of rock n roll

The Perils Of Rock N' Roll Decadence.

They forgot to put the sueing part in the song.

Hello Kids!  :peace:

Todays word is S-N-A-F-U.

Say it with me, SNAFU!

Just like, "This situation in the Guns N' Roses camp is SNAFU."

I think that Pilferk's idea makes the most sense. More than likely some legal strongarm tactics having to do with the previous lawsuit. It proves perfectly, as some people have already stated, that Axl can't be "out of the partnership" as Slash and Duff claim, since he apparantly has the power to cut off royalty checks to them. Actually, it seems, the more I look at it, to be a shrewd (if not assholish) legal move.

It kind of negates their previous lawsuit, no?

~KYI

heres my two cents.
When it comes to music business - Slash & Duff are NOT fucking idiots. They have both been in this industry for many years, not only with GNR, but also doing solo projects, guest-starring and co-writing on other musicians' projects and albums and now with VR. They expanded their enterprise a lot further than Axl ever did, since Axl has only stayed with one entitty and that is GNR (VR  was a pretty complicated task for Duff & Slash since it involved bringing in a frontman who had just recently quit a multi-platinum band called STP and it involved a level of promotion, sales & marketing not seen to them since GNR. This is not to say that Axl is an idiot, unfortunately he is a clever, control-minded, manipulative person, who gets his ways in goods ways and bad, and we the fans pay for it every time). GNR is like Axl's fortress and he's become the master of its domain, while Slash & Duff have had to build other "fortresses", maybe not as big, but certainly with the same result when it came to all the mumbo-jumbo of music industry economical lingo. Their signing away of the GNR name had less to do with them being idiots on drugs, and a lot more about caring for the fans and touring behind the UYI records between 1991-1993.

Slash also grew up in the music industry. He has talked about how he watched deals go down growing up in his house and attending music industry parties and how it taught him the business-side of the industry. He didn't just come from the streets.

And didn't Duff talk about opening up a class at one point for musical artists to attend and learn about how to deal with the business aspects. He has taken business courses in college, he has learned from his experiences with Ten Minute Warning, his solo projects and VR, and also from mingling with other musicians and knows how the music industry can fuck over musicians.

It amazes me to see how people could still pigeonhole Duff McKagan & Slash in their drunkin;, drug-induced 1980's-1990's hey-days. At least they still got heads on their shoulders and have had post-GNR success, which says a hell of a lot more than the member who currently runs GNR.

I wish Slash & Duff all the luck in taking back what they rightfully earned FOR US FANS, which is a GNR catalog of great songs we can listen to every day - they get the credit in my book.
 : ok:
MNR

Wow you must have intimate knowledge of both lawsuits to know for a fact what belongs to who. Most likely the publication rights and ownership of the back catalog belongs to all three of them. It never belonged to us; we are merely allowed the privilege to enjoy the spoils of said ownership.

I think you also downplay the vindictiveness of Slash and Duff. Feeling cheated from the naive loss of the bands name to Axl, they are trying to get as much power over the old band's material as they can. Do they have a case? No one knows. Certainly no one here. Certainly not you. As far as we know the partnership is three men; three men who can't get along now or probably ever. Out of the partnership, only one person has had the business sense to maintain his stake in the band, new and old; two of the members made perhaps the dumbest deal in music over the last 20 years. It sucks and I feel bad for them, but I also understand how much it probably stings them to see Axl in control of the name. The losers in this mess are of course the fans who now will not hear GnR in any cool movies for a long while and certainly will not hear the new record in the time frame that would have existed before these lawsuits.

As for post GnR success, Axl's fate has not yet been written. I would reserve judgement until the fate of Chinese Democracy is determined.

Here is my three cents. Axl is not an idiot either. You really think he would? be that dumb to screw slash and duff out of royaltiest? Like I said wait until you hear Axls side (something I know you never like doing).? Also, like I said? before, this whole case and that renewal of the copyright PROVES that axl still is in the partnership. So what do you have to say about that? They renewed it in 2003 so they were not high or drunk in those years so they have no leg to stand on in that case now do they?

 Also, that company kobalt have lawyers and would not be dumb to cover all the bases and try and screw slash and duff out of their royalties so they can only get sued.

Its really sad that? you have no clue. Also I am sure you would love for guns n roses to sell out, and use WTTJ or PC is some stupid snapple or car commercial.? I think that is so lame when bands do that.? I am glad you want slash and duff to sell out the guns n roses name something they quit so long ago.

The thing is, this new case could pretty much wipe out the case in Nov since this case proves Axl is still in the partnership.
Slash and Duff cannot please incompetence this time since they renewed the partnership pretty much in 2003 for the back catalog.

( wonders if suing, for both parts, is not going to cost them that 92.000 dollars...................)

Ive sat here,( that is when Im not out takig care of my own shit and life). the last few days reading this and saying to myself, WOW, DAMN,WTF.



But I also know Im not a lawyer, nor a person that watches Court Tv and such. BUT I know Im pretty intelligent. Alot of this reminds me of Monday morning armchair Quarterbacks and , (those in America) may know what Im talkin about. 

There is alot of shit goin on, no doubt, but from someone who lived through and had to basically fight for my own survival in the court system, when all that anyone heard was "the other side" the one that charged me . And Me just this guy , at the time 22 taking on a fucking county and won , I definitly want to hear all sides of this, this law suit is about money, my trial was about manslaughter, with my car, and when all was said and done, it was the counties fault, the police, not mine for the accident, but ,I always knew that but took alot of strength for me to get on the stand and tell my side. I didnt have high power attorneys only what my parents could afford, but I had was the truth. Even though someone I loved was killed .

So to me this is more like bullshit, till we know all , but I guess all here would be so inclined to watch this as if it was the OJ trial.

Me fuck yer I want to know whats up, but  in the end , its not gonna matter. CD will come out eventually, what happens in the trial or settlement will be reveiled and at the end of the day, we all go on . Or I would hope.


Still , as we are all human and gravitate to things that interest us, lets really save judgements for the court.

i don't think this lawsuit has anything to do with the 92.000 dollars

on the contrary i think it has a lot to do with the other lawsuit

This gonna delay CD even more  ::)

Chinese Democracy starts.....ah fuck it.

It has nothing to do with that all. It's about not getting paid for something they completely and rightfully deserve to be paid for. Whether it was Axl, Sanctuary, or whoever that was behind the mistake/fraud/oversight/whateverthefuckhappened.

Like most of what goes on in the GnR world, we don't know for sure, but spend an awful lot of time here arguing about it.

if slash and duff did sign over theyr right in 92, and were under the influence of drugs then that is not a valid contract

a valid contract MUST include the following

1. an offer
2. acceptance
3. consideration
4. intention to create legal relations
5. CAPACITY TO CONTRACT
6. genuine consent to all terms by the parties to the contract
7. contract must be legal and capable of performance


f a person is insane or intoxicated when entering into a contract the contract is viodable if it can be shown:

1 - the person at the time was incapable of understanding the nature of the contract
2 - the other person knew or ought to have known of this disability


another thing to note is:

it is presumed by law that parties enter into a contract voluntarily and WITHOUT DURESS AND INDUE INFLUENCE. if present the contract is void

they are some of the rules in Irish law for a valid contract, which to me shows that when S and D signed over the rights to axl the contract was not legal

kinda ironic, when we want guns n'roses news, it's always bad ones who appears.

and still no official guns n'roses website to have the comments of Axl himself...

the lack of website is really a desapointement for me. plus the actual frontpage is really ugly. I hope it will change when the record is out.
They should hire a web-designer, or maybe robin can do it, his website is quite artistic and esthetic.

With all due respect, you have no proof that S&D signed away those rights while impaired or under duress. Since their lawyers have been all over the contracts looking for a way to get some of their rights back, it would be reasonable to assume that the obviousness of your argument was considered and ruled out as an avenue of litigation.

yeah i know, i was just making the point to everyone that refers to them as junkies, but its 13 years ago since they signed so maybe nothing can be done about it now anyway

It is not a question of time either; the statute of limitations had not run out since S&D were looking at this contract more than five years  ago. The most likely scenario is that S&D simply made a bad decision and are living with the consequences right now.

ah well, unfortunatley looks that way forwhat ever reason they signed away

I actually support the selling out the of GNR name.
I would love to see that, for the sake of GNR and their place in history.
Because had GNR never sold out their version of KOHD to MTV's Celebrity Deathmatch in 1998, I would still not be a GNR fan. I also thought that WTTJ sounded really hot playing as the anthem for the Grand Theft Auto game. In my opinion, AFD still has a chance to crack the top 100 on Billboards albums charts if it is marketed correctly. Im sure that many of the fans on these boards discovered GNR the same way that I did. I know what the songs mean to me, what they mean to GNR fans, but it would be nice if they could be shared all over, even if in the context of "Snapple". I find it selfish of you to want to keep GNR contained to a small group of hard core fans on HTGTH. There are plenty of people out there who would fall for this stuff.

And for you to play Devil's Advocate, to pretend that you know Axl as well as Duff & Slash do, is an insult to the GNR name. And yes, I DO READ WAT AXL SAYS, but what he says and what he does are two different stories. You talk about Slash Double Talkin', it was Axl who in 1990 talked about cutting a solo project with other players, but who by 1996 all of a sudden thought he was GNR and kicked out the very guys who brought him the great music that now we lack because they could no longer share in his visions. I also never said that Axl was dumb, I think he's a genius, but how he has used his genious since GNR has been damaging to fans and former bandmates.

& how anybody could prove that this delays CD for me, is beyond repair in the brain. Because there's no indication that the record is coming out, and now people think this delays an album

FINALLY, I don't know shit about these royalties, publishing rights, but I do know that Slash & Duff know about this stuff, they know and there's a really really good chance that Axl just did something very shadybecause they've dealt with him and seen him deal with others before . At the least, Axl would care enough about his former bandmates to get their money to them, he didn;t even care. He pointed no wrongs in the deal, time has elapsed, and let the lawsuit begin.

Oh yeah, keep waiting on CD.
MNR

LOL, I'm sure Axl and his lawyers have done their research too and protected themselves from any action that could be misconstrued as fraud. Kobalt, a very respected royalty collection agency, would no doubt review every contract and ensure that it was not a fraudulent deal.

You seem to give S&D the benefit of ALOT of doubt, which is a shame because no one here has heard the facts from both sides. Only S&D's brief has been made public. It is a mistake to assume in this case, especially when the other side have not aired their dirty laundry in public as S&D have.

Mark I just laugh at people like you. You must really be a sad person to keep coming to this board if you don't care about CD. You keep talking trash to the people that are waiting for CD. See the people that are waiting are the TRUE fans not people like you who bash and bash.  Everyone can see you hate for Axl and that is fine, but don't be so blatant about it. At least wait until the FULL story comes out. I know in your mind you cannot do that and just take slash and duffs side no matter what.


I still don?t understand why you would want the gnr name to be whored out, that is pathetic. Its one thing to use it wisely but its to let every tom, dick and Harry use any gnr song they want for anything. Like I really want to hear a gnr song in some stupid commercial, but that?s the difference between slash and duff and Axl. Axl wants to use the song when it warrants it; slash and duff still want to use the name guns n roses just to make money. You should talk to some Stones or Zeppelin hard-core fans; they hate the fact that their songs are used for stupid car commercials and other commercials. 

The fact is Axl is the only one that truly cares about the guns n roses name and legacy.  If slash, izzy and duff did they never would have walked away. 

You call yourself a fan and still don?t know gnr history. I love how you claim Axl kicked out slash, duff, and izzy when that is far from the truth. They QUIT, what is that so hard for you to understand?

As for how this could delay CD. Again you really don?t know your gnr history, and it shows. Look at any court case that Axl has gone through esp with the old band. Slash and Duff always said what ever Axl/gnr has a court case Axl always puts that first and puts everything else on the back burner. So slash and duff know by suing Axl (the first case) that it will preoccupy Axl and it will push CD off. You call yourself a fan and didn?t even know that. It just shows how you are just a causal fan, thus is why you would love for slash and duff to whore out the gnr name, a band they are not even in anymore.

That would be like Dave Mistane suing metallica and wanting to use metallica songs and whore out their songs.


Again as for this money issue. Like I said, Kobalt deals with the money, that is their job, you really think they would open theirselves up to a lawsuit? Instead of doing your favorite past time and blame Axl for everything and bash him why don?t you wait until the full story comes out?

I'm sure the only reason for this lawsuit is to keep CD off the shelves.? ::)

Axl Rose can do a far better job of screwing Axl Rose and the alleged release of Chinese Democracy than Slash, Duff, and a lawsuit over publishing royalities ever could.

The fact of the matter is they have stopped receiving due royalties on albums that they helped write/perform. I love how the Anti-Slash/Duff crowd is quick to shout about how they need to stop living in the past. If that were the case then as soon as the old band ended they should have taken every album, Appetite through TSI, off the shelves and taken them out of print.

PS: I beleive that Axl has a rerecording of Appetite with the new group allegedly stashed away somewhere, allowed a bogus version of SCOM to play during the credits of Big Daddy, toured the new band playing nothing but old material.? All the while we have no new Guns album. Yep, Slash and Duff...those assholes just can't let go of the past.? ::)

Really its funny the first trial was going to be in april or so, but slash and duff asked for it to  be pushed back to Nov.  We all know that trial is a farse since its stupid to claim that Axl is not in the partnership esp since they with Axl tried to stop the GHs album, and also renewed their contract in 2003 for the old songs being used in movies.

Like I said  before until this full story comes out about the checks, there is really no point it talking about it. Like I said it could have been a clarical error.  If Axl did try to pull a fast when then he deserves to be sued, but we have not heard his side yet, so lets wait for that before you guys try and tar and feather him.

I won't even go into the big daddy thing and touring under the name gnr again since this thread is not about that. WE dont want this thread turing into this is not gnr thread.

Sarcasm noted, and agreed with.

We'll just have to add the "lawsuits as an evil ploy by the ex members to keep Axl from releasing CD"
to the rest of the goofy conspiracy theories that have been manifested over the years.

A safe bet would say the former members are at least as anxious to hear if Axl can deliver as the rest of us are..

slash and duff stopped getting their royalties for the back catalogue. even if it was a clerical error, they have the right to sue if they want to. they are owed money. it does appear, on the surface, that this was not a simple clerical error, especially if the money was dumped into axl rose's company. they may not win, but don't bash them for suing. if there wasn't any evidence whatsoever, the case will get dismissed quickly.

If the money was dumped in axl's account......big IF........


No one knows the merits to any of these accusations.

Falcon, I wouldn't be so sure about that! It's a war now. Anyhow, I just read the first complaint and s/d are also challenging Axl's authority to conduct business under "the ongoing " relationship with Geffen Records. In other words, as I have said before, unless Axl has a new recording contract for the new Gnr, then he cannot fulfill any of the original obligations of the original recording contract with Geffen without s/d involvement (if he is deemed to have left the partnership). Thus, in a way, they are or could be making the release of Chinese alot more difficult. Axl is really in a complete mess. Killingvector is right though. No one has seen Axl's answers to ANY of the allegations so we are really only getting one side of the story.?:'(

Like I said and something some of you keep ignoring, I am not talking about this lawsuit. I am talking about the first lawsuit claiming axl is not in the partnership anymore, that lawsuit is a farse. 

Dave, I wouldn't be so sure about that first lawsuit. Axl clearly gave them a document saying he was leaving the partnership as of 12-31-1995. If he did, then he would be considered a terminated partner and banned from making decisions on the back catalog. The case could go either way depending on the wording of his notice. It certainly isn't a farce.

As I said in a prior post, I will withhold any judgement until I hear the other side of the story.  However, I do recognize this could hold up a potential release but in no means do I thnk holding up a release is the goal of Slash/Duff and the subsequent lawsuit(s).

This whole thing is one big cluster fuck. I'm going on vacation until we actually have music to talk about. Hold down the fort and see ya next year sometime (or maybe the next)! :peace:

yeah, i suppose all the money was used in the brand new lambor...i mean in ChinDem  :hihi:
i suppose the website will be out with the LP, yes...just a commercial thing.
i always though it's quite strange Axl never appeared online himself, in a way or another.
we all know he's online, a bit reclusive, and read some boards (this one at least h?h?).

but let's talk the *here today's lawyers*, we're a bit off topic.  ;D

Oh no.........if you leave I won't understand all this legal mumbo jumbo shit because you give a good intrepretation of it madagas.

Want to know what'll be a clusterfuck?

It won't matter WHO has WHAT proof nor does it matter WHAT the jury decides.............the JUDGE can overturn ANY decision.

How much do you want to bet the JUDGE will be a GUN's fan and drop this WHOLE ridiculous lawsuit and make them reunite as PUNISHMENT.....

HA HA....can you see it?  A FEDERAL JUDGE makes them reunite and CUT an album to please all of us who have waited ;D

Letters of intent are not binding by law, and did you read Evas links? The fact is after 1995 Axl, slash and duff still were in the partnership since all three made decisions on gnr song uses.? Like I said they all sued Geffen for the GHs, if axl was not in the parntership then it would have been just slash and duff vs geffen, in 2003 all three of them renewed their copyright for the songs.? Its like you giving your two week notice at work then those two weeks passing and you keep working there then 10 years later your work claiming you really dont work there anymore.? It is a farce, since Axl with slash and duff have made partnerships decisions as late as 2003, so tell me how its not a farce?

Read Evas links, they clearly state that a letter like this cannot terminate a partnership unless they draw up another one with just slash and duff having the rights to the old songs. That NEVER happened thus Axl is still in the partnership.

Dave u arguing for Axl on the first lawsuit and are making great points on the FIRST lawsuit

but your argument contradicts the second lawsuit.

Axl,Duff,and Slash are still in a partnership therefore Axl cannot do any business regarding the back GNR catalog without OK from the other members

Just like Dave Grohl and Krist Novoselic couldnt put out Nirvana material without Courtney Love signing off on it and Courtney couldnt put out any Nirvana material without Dave and Krist signing off on it.

Same thing here, Axl jumped the gun, did something he wasnt legally allowed to do cause he didnt consult the other members of the partnership.

We arent arguing the First Lawsuit here, we are arguing the most recent one.

You are wrong. Axl can sell his shares of the partnership, but he cannot sell slash and duffs, that is where the 2nd lawsuit is coming from because Slash and duff did not get their checks in the mail.? Axl does not need permission to sell his shares, now if Axl sold duff and slashs then he is wrong, but we do not know that? yet. WE have to wait and see on his answer.
But if you look at that kobalt site, it says Axl Rose and not guns n roses or Axl, slash and duff. So that right there tells you it must some error as to why they didnt get their checks.

Ok, I see what u are saying, I thought u were still arguing the partnership

I think it will be some minor oversight, like they accidentally transferred all the publishing instead of just Axl's

but why didnt Axl just mail them their check or something?

I hope Axl isnt doing something dishonest

Ill givehim the benefit of the doubt but unless he has a great explanation it isnt lookin good.

Agreed. And I'm not tarring and feathering anyone, people just seem to have this insane notion that sometime last week they noticed that the check? never arrive and a couple days later a lawsuit was filed. On it's best day the American legal system doesn't move at twice that pace.

Well it looks like sact owes a lot of people their checks, this might be why slash and duff did not get theirs yet.
http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh48622_2005-08-23_08-53-11_l23596876_newsml

That's all we ask, D.

Axl probably never sees the checks. It's a good bet that Slash or Duff physically see on either. The accountant probably processes them as they arrive and the money appears on their bank statements. Any smart person who regularly deals with that much money isn't doing it themselves, they have an accountant crunching  the numbers for them.

I been reading all the comments and opinions and questions in this thread and have been doing a little digging around on the net.

In that regard first off - the assertion that Axl transferred publishing from ASCAP is not correct.

Black Frog is a member of ASCAP.  BLACK FROG MUSIC    Society: ASCAP       CAE/IPI No. 345.59.70.38

Kobalt is a member of ASCAP  KOBALT SONGS MUSIC PUBLISHING    Society: ASCAP       CAE/IPI No. 402.82.67.78 

So ASCAP still tracks the use of GN'R music and collects royalties from those who use it. 

According to the article Axl had ASCAP chage the publisher/adminstrator - changing to whom ASCAP would send payment.

So who might have the payments been going to prior to the change the article spoke of?

Just about every GN'R song title lists "Black Frog.... o/o Kobalt" as the Publisher/ Adminstrator...
except for one that I found that lists:  BMG Songs Inc/Guns N' Roses Mu(sic)

Could it be that this is what they all said before it was switched to "Black Frog"?

This is the info in the ASCAP registry listed for publisher/adminstrator for "Anything Goes" (along with Black Frog):

BMG SONGS INC/GUNS N' ROSES MU
Society: ASCAP CAE/IPI No. 127.69.64.46
Contact:
BMG SONGS INC/GUNS N' ROSES MU
% GUNS N' ROSES MUSIC
% SUSSMAN & ASSOCIATES
1222 16 AVE SOUTH
THIRD FLOOR
NASHVILLE , TN, 37212

Okay so who is this Sussman and Associates?

Charles Sussman was an agent for Guns N' Roses way back in  1988

GUNS N' ROSES, INC. Number: C1441630 Date Filed: 7/25/1988 Status: dissolved Jurisdiction: California Address 12424 WILSHIRE BLVD. #1000 LOS ANGELES, CA 90025 Agent for Service of Process CHARLES SUSSMAN 12424 WILSHIRE BLVD. #1000 LOS ANGELES, CA 90025

And Charles Sussman at some point after 1988 became a partner in the bussiness management/accountant firm Gudvi, Sussman, & Oppenheim

on their website   http://www.gsogroup.com/Home.htm (http://www.gsogroup.com/Home.htm) note, their nashville address is the same as the one listed on ASCAP for Sussman and Associates...

Gudvi, Sussman & Oppenheim, Inc.
NASHVILLE
1222 16th Avenue South
Third Floor
Nashville, TN 37212

and they also list a Sherman Oaks location:

Gudvi, Sussman & Oppenheim, Inc.
LOS ANGELES
15260 Ventura Boulevard
Suite 2100
Sherman Oaks, CA 91403

This is a business managment and accountant firm.  You will see on their website that they provide 'royalty services'.

bear with me....

-- in California Bussiness Search you will find the following listing:

 "GUNS N' ROSES INTERNATIONAL FAN CLUB, INC". Number: C1881160 Date Filed: 2/4/1994 Status: suspended Jurisdiction: California Address 15250 VENTURA BLVD #900 SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91403 Agent for Service of Process MICHAEL OPPENHEIM GUDVI, CHAPNICK & OPPENHEIM 15250 VENNTURA BLVD #900 SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91403

--- also if you look at all the 'dead' trademark registrations for "Guns N' Roses"  you'll see Gudvi Chapnick & Oppenheim noted in the applicant info.

REGISTRANT) GUNS N' ROSES composed of W. Axl Rose, Michael McKagan, and Saul Hudson, all U.S. citizens PARTNERSHIP CALIFORNIA Gudvi, Chapnick & Oppenheim 15250 Ventura Blvd., Suite 400 Sherman Oaks CALIFORNIA 91403

--- further Slash sued this firm in 1998

from:  http://heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=76  (http://heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=76) source MTVnews

"Slash is suing his former business manager over an accounting error that apparently led to over-payments to his ex-wife totaling over $200,000. Management for the former Guns guitarist confirmed the suit but declined to comment.
Sources report that payments were made to his former wife Renee over the course of their on-again, off-again relationship from 1992 to 1996 that doubled the $5000 per month amount that had been agreed to.
While some sources say Renee has refused to repay the money, others say that Slash has not asked her to do so. He instead intends to attempt recovery from the management company, Gudvi, Chapnick, Oppenheim and business manager Michael Oppenheim."

-- So "Gudvi, Chapnick, & Oppenheim" were agents/business managers for Guns N' Roses.... and at some point became "Gudvi, Sussman, and Oppenheim."

---Gudvi Sussman and Oppenheim partner Michael Oppenheim (the same Michael Oppenheim that Slash sued) was the Agent of Service listed in the corporate registration for Black Frog Enterprises in the state of California.? the registration was filed in 1998 and the current status is:? suspended

BLACK FROG ENTITIES Number: C2110022 Date Filed: 6/1/1998 Status: suspended Jurisdiction: California Address 15260 VENTURA BLVD NO 2100 SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91403 Agent for Service of Process MICHAEL OPPENHEIM 15260 VENTURA BLVD NO 2100 SHERMAN OAKS, CA 91403

--- the same search for "black frog" resulted in the following listing for "Black Frog Music" registered on November 16, 1999, and that company is listed as active

BLACK FROG MUSIC Number: C2182491 Date Filed: 11/16/1999 Status: active Jurisdiction: California Address 450 NORTH ROXBURY DRIVE 8TH FLOOR BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210 Agent for Service of Process JEREMY MOHR 450 NORTH ROXBURY DRIVE 8TH FLOOR BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210

---and a listing for Black Frog Touring registered on July 30, 2002

BLACK FROG TOURING, INC. Number: C2460956 Date Filed: 7/30/2002 Status: active Jurisdiction: California Address 450 N. ROXBURY DRIVE EIGHTH FLOOR BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210 Agent for Service of Process JEREMY G. MOHR 450 N. ROXBURY DRIVE EIGHTH FLOOR BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90210

----lets look at? some more info on "Black Frog".?
The Trademark Electronic Search System renders the following result for "Black Frog"

Owner (APPLICANT) BLACK FROG ENTITIES CORPORATION CALIFORNIA c/o Hansen, Jacobson, Teller, Hoberman,Newman & Warren/ Hertz & Goldring, LLP 450 N. Roxbury Drive, 8th Fl Beverly Hills CALIFORNIA 902104222 Attorney of Record HARVEY S. HERTZ Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 23, 2001

---What has this to do with Guns N' Roses?

---Look at the 'live' search results for "Guns N' Roses" on the  Trademark Electronic Search System

(REGISTRANT) Guns N' Roses composed of W. Axl Rose, Michael McKagan and Saul Hudson, all U.S. citizens PARTNERSHIP CALIFORNIA  450 N. ROXBURY DRIVE, 8TH FLOOR BEVERLY HILLS CALIFORNIA 902104222 Attorney of Record HARVEY S. HERTZ

---Note the address for "Guns N' Roses"
---Note the address for "Black Frog Music" and "Black Frog Touring"
---It is the address of Hansen,Jacobson, Hoberman, Newman & Warren/ Hertz and Goldring which is listed for "Black Frog Entities" in care of address
---(The Agent for Service of Process listed for the active corporations "Black Frog Music" and "Black Frog Touring", Jeremy Mohr, is an attorney with Hertz & Goldring at the same address).

Harvey Hertz is listed as the attorney of record for both the "Black Frog Entities" trademark application and "Guns N' Roses" live trademark application.
(He is however, not the Hertz of Hertz & Goldring - the Hertz in Hertz & Goldring is senior partner Ken Hertz.)

What could this mean?

If the lawfirm  Hertz & Goldring represent both "Guns N' Roses" and "Black Frog" we can rule out that any change/switch made by them could be a case of one hand not knowing what the other was doing.  An attorney could not 'steal' from one of its clients for another.

And regarding "Gudvi, Sussman, Oppenheimer" - we don't know if they are the accountant firm or current business managers for Axl or Guns N' Roses, but we do know that in June of 1998 Axl apparently retained them in registering Black Frog Entities as a Corporation.  And we also know that in December 1998 the story came out about Slash's suing them in an article from MTV news that referenced them as Slash's "former business manager".

Yet, there is that listing on ASCAP that names Sussman as a "Publisher/Administrator"...
If ASCAP was sending Sussman the royalties, then Slash's royalties were being handled by an agent that he did not hire, but one nonetheless that was still handling/representing Guns N' Roses. 
This would be much like the situation we are assuming with Kobalt... that Slash (& Duff) would have to receive their portion of the Guns N' Roses Royalties from them.

And no, that isn't a lot that can be determined from all that 'info' I listed, but I found it interesting and thought some others might also.   :P

Well i found it interesting but for the most part i was like  ??? ??? ???

Does it mean that possibly Axl changed over the publishing company and now is trying to claim sole partnership of publishing rights, and therefore all the royalties that come along with that partnership? Isn't it just the same thing they are already suing Axl for? or was the previous publishing rights were owned by the three of them and now Axl has moved the rights from Axl, Duff, Slash to another company that Axl owns under Sanctuary?  ??? ???

I'm not really good at legal speak, what are the 2 lawsuits all about.   ???

and shouldn't this be in the Axl's Legal Problems Thread?  ???

Anyway thats for digging for us Eva  : ok:

For all that digging eva did, she proved one thing. That Axl is still in the partnership. Just look at all the times and the year dates Slash, Duff and Axl is listed as the partnership.

Wow Eva, you're a bottomless well of information !  Thanks for taking the time to dig this all up  : ok:

Legal Guns Blazing: 2 Former Bandmates Again Sue Axl Rose
By Charles Duhigg, Times Staff Writer


For the tattooed members of the band Guns N' Roses, paradise city has become an unwelcome legal jungle.

Former Guns N' Roses members Slash and Duff, otherwise known as Saul Hudson and Michael McKagan, are suing band leader Axl Rose for the second time in less than two years.

The latest complaint, filed Aug. 17 in federal court in Los Angeles, alleges that in May, Rose fraudulently named himself sole administrator of the band's copyrights, jilting his former partners out of their shares of revenue that Hudson and McKagan's lawyer said totals about $500,000 a year.

Guns N' Roses recorded such songs as "Welcome to the Jungle," "Paradise City" and "Sweet Child o' Mine."

This month's suit accuses Rose of "suffering an apparent attack of arrogance and ego" and says "he is no longer willing to acknowledge the contributions of his former partners and bandmates in having created some of rock's greatest hits."

The filing claims that Rose directed the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers to send all publishing royalties to Rose's publishing company, bypassing the band's other partners. The plaintiffs allege that so far, they have been excluded from their shares of at least $92,000 in royalties collected in one quarter of 2005.

But Howard Weitzman, Rose's lawyer, said the singer had asked to receive only his portion of royalties, and that the overpayment was due to a clerical error by the society. Weitzman said Rose had returned the extra funds to the organization. A representative from the society did not return phone calls.

Disputes among successful bands are not unusual, particularly as the passing of time sends royalties spiraling into the millions. Longtime Eagles guitarist Don Felder brought suit in 2001 against fellow band members Don Henley and Glenn Frey, claiming that they cheated him out of album and concert earnings totaling more than $50 million.

Last month the lead singer of Megadeth filed suit against the band's former bass player for allegedly using the group's name in an ad for musical equipment.

But Guns N' Roses, the Los Angeles band that formed in the mid-1980s and quickly became a worldwide sensation, has kept the courts especially busy.

Last year, Hudson and McKagan filed their first suit against Rose. This one alleged that the singer had wrongly claimed ownership of the group's assets after he quit Guns N' Roses in 1995. It also claimed that Rose had blocked Hudson and McKagan from licensing the band's recordings to movie producers, "costing the Guns N' Roses partnership millions of dollars to date." The case is pending.

Rose is the only member of the band who retains the right to perform under the Guns N' Roses name. Hudson and McKagan are now part of the bestselling band Velvet Revolver.

Also last year, Rose briefly joined forces with Hudson and McKagan to try to prevent Geffen Records from releasing a greatest-hits compilation of the band's tunes. They lost that suit, and the album went on to sell more than 1.8 million copies.

A similar reunion probably won't occur again soon, Weitzman said.

"When a band is very dependent on the personality of the group's leader, and that leader chooses to move on, it's not unusual for the members left behind to be hostile and mad," Rose's lawyer said. "If you mention the Eagles, people remember Henley, not Felder. When you mention Guns N' Roses, everyone knows the leader was Axl."


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-guns26aug26,1,1730355.story?coll=la-headlines-business

---

Here's the interesting part of the article:

But Howard Weitzman, Rose's lawyer, said the singer had asked to receive only his portion of royalties, and that the overpayment was due to a clerical error by the society. Weitzman said Rose had returned the extra funds to the organization. A representative from the society did not return phone calls.




/jarmo

Duff, Slash Gunning for Axl

by Charlie Amter
Aug 25, 2005, 3:15 PM PT



The bad blood among the ex-members of Guns N' Roses has boiled over into a federal case.

Duff McKagan and Slash filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles Wednesday against Guns ringleader Axl Rose, accusing their former frontman of trying to cheat them out of royalties to the song catalog of the iconic band.

Duff and Slash, now part of Velvet Revolver, say they are still partners with Rose when it comes to the old Guns tunes like "Sweet Child O' Mine" and "Welcome to the Jungle." They contend that Rose, without their consent, signed a multimillion-dollar publishing deal with U.K.-based Sanctuary Group earlier this year that included the lucrative Guns N' Roses back catalog.

Because of Rose's "arrogance and ego," per the suit, he has failed to "acknowledge the contributions of his former bandmates in [creating] some of rock's greatest hits."

"Rose's actions were malicious, fraudulent and oppressive, and undertaken in conscious disregard of [Slash and Duff's] property rights." They say that a $92,000 royalty check covering the first quarter of 2005 went directly to Rose "and his accomplices," instead of being split three ways.

The former Gunners are accusing Rose of fraud, copyright infringement and breach of fiduciary duty.

There was no immediate comment from Rose's reps. Deke Arlon, chairman of Sanctuary's publishing division, told E! Online he couldn't discuss the dust-up because "the matter is subject to legal hearings."

The original members of the Los Angeles band drifted apart in the mid-1990s--leaving the band's legacy in dispute. Rose was eventually awarded rights to the Guns N' Roses moniker and continues to play (or not play, as is more often the case) under the GNR banner. But Duff and McKagan sued Rose in April 2004 to determine control of the back catalog.

That breach-of-contract lawsuit, which is still pending, specifically alleges Rose unilaterally blocked the others from licensing Guns music for movie soundtracks, effectively shutting off potential revenue streams to Slash and Duff. The duo claimed Rose "whimsically refuses to license Guns and Roses Music" even though he, they allege, dropped out of the partnership in 1995.

Even with the feuding, the band's studio albums have all gone multiplatinum, and Guns' songs are still among the most requested in the publishing biz. The band's tunes recently turned up--along with Rose's vocal acting talents--in 2004's biggest videogame release, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

What hasn't turned up is Rose's forever-in-the-works album, Chinese Democracy, with his revamped version of Guns N' Roses.

Earlier this year, the New York Times ran a lengthy feature examining how the seemingly mythical Chinese Democracy has failed to surface, despite being finessed in various studios for the better part of the last decade. The article concluded that the delay was due in part to Rose's fabled eccentric and reclusive nature.

In response to the March article, Sanctuary Group CEO Merck Mercuriadis fired off a vitriolic letter to the Times, saying Rose will "have the last laugh" and that the singer is simply a "soft target for the sort of rubbish you have chosen to print."

Last we heard, Sanctuary was aiming for a late November release date for Democracy, but that was before the label's financial problems became public. The company is said to be heavily burdened by debt and is struggling to survive.

Despite their open feuding, Duff, Slash and Rose did manage to reunite last year to sue Universal to block the release of Guns N' Roses Greatest Hits. The band lost, and the album wound up debuting at number three on the Billboard 200 and ultimately sold over 2 million copies.

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,17228,00.html

---

This article also has a quote that's not been seen before:


There was no immediate comment from Rose's reps. Deke Arlon, chairman of Sanctuary's publishing division, told E! Online he couldn't discuss the dust-up because "the matter is subject to legal hearings."




/jarmo

I have to apologize to Axl after reading the response, I did something I usually bitch at others for doing which is jumping the gun,

So I apologize to all fellow Axl fans


I am so glad Axl doesnt allow Slash and Duff to whore out GNR songs at every opportunity

the more you whore them out, the less special they become.

I never want to associate a GNR song I have great emotions for? to be used to sell a car or truck or something else.

 I am so glad Axl isnt a sell out bastard.

Thanks for posting the articles Jarmo. It seems as though Slash and Duff are wrong once again  ::)

What are Axl's people gonna say? 'Yeah, we're busted...you know we're really sick of sending those assholes money, so why not pocket it all and hope no one notices?'  ::)

Until all the evidence is brought to light everyone just has their side of the story. It's up to an impartial medium (ie: the judge) to determine what actually happened.

If he were to make a claim that he couldn't prove in court (remember, this is Axl's lawyer, not Axl himself), he would pretty much destroy his reputation.  For the lawyer to make that categorical of a statement, I'm going to assume he has proof (like, a cancelled check and Certified Mail receipt of some sort) that Axl did what he's claiming.

And, if he did....well, Slash and Duff are going to look pretty silly, as are their lawyers.  And the judge is likely to be pretty pissed off as the lawyers have wasted a good bit of the courts time by not doing their home work.

Assuming the Axl's lawyers claim is true, of course.

 ??? :hihi:

I assume Axls lawyer doesnt follow popular music very closely...

Keep laughing but you know its true. Even in the old days it was the Axl signs.

Slash and company could never conjure up the cult following that is here today. If the situation was reveresed and Slash had the GNr name, Axl was on the outside lookin in, and held out with material all these yrs, do you think there would be the same amount of people here with the intensity,frusteration and passion for that Beer and Ciggs album?

My bet would be that most of the peopel would be on some other board.

And, to add to that...we got Slash's idea of what GnR should have been:  It was the Snakepit albums.  And, Axl on vocals or not, that material was good, but certainly not GREAT, CLASSIC, REMARKABLE stuff. :)

agreed but forget even that. thats all for another thread. Lets say we never even hear the Snakepit album or anything like that. Lets say it was just like it is today with GNr. DO you think it would be the same in anticipation, day by day soap opera etc...

eh no it wouldnt be the same anticipation, for the simle reason that the album would have been fucking released already by now, and most likely a folow up to that too would have beenn released

and the only reason so many ppl are waiting is cos of the GNR name, if it were called the axl rose band then nearly half the ppl wouldnt be here

 :hihi:? Exactly.? Asking such a hypothetical question is essentially asking, "Well if Slash was Axl, would..." and incredibly pointless.? Youngunner, instead of pondering such a silly impossibility, why dont you take facts into account?? For example, 2 million copies of Contraband sold in the U.S., #1 rock singles, Grammy win (and nominations), etc.?

Hmmm...I don't think so.  The anticipation level MIGHT be there (it's tough to say), but the day to day soap opera definitely not.  Because NOBODY is as closed mouthed as Axl is and forces those around him to be.  NOBODY from the old band is that singular of purpose.  Case in point: Velvet Revolver.  Mostly the same guys.  And they'll spill their guts about any old thing you want them to talk about.  The same would be true if they had carried on the GnR name and Axl had left.  The "sense of mystery" and the "air of mystique" certainly wouldn't be there....and sometimes I think that's 1/2 the appeal of the current incarnation.   We always want what we can't have. :)

This story has made Yahoo! News

that's pretty crazy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050826/ap_en_ce/people_guns_n__roses

a clerical ERROR by ASCAP!  :o

As far as I remember in Feb this miskel person made an immediate remark about Axl's publishing deal to the effect that Axl sold his rights and the other twos without permission and quickly retracted it. And now he jumps at some clerical error as if he was right with his prophecy.
What a prudent lawyer.

And brazenfaced as well!

See, the SnDs side made assertion that Axl doesn't own the rights for the partnership previously. Doesn't this allegation imply that he isn't entitled the royalties?
Who are "suffering an apparent attack of arrogance and ego,  no longer willing to acknowledge the contributions of their partner and former band mate in having created some of rock's greatest hits." :rant:

This complaint is like accusing their own evil attempt.

You really need to get a clue. You do know the  compannies that publishing royalties are UNBIASED? You really thin they have it in for slash and duff? They dont care who the money goes to, they just make sure the checks go to the right place so they dont get sued. It was a simple error like I said it was going to  be.  Axl gave the money back when he saw he got duff and slashs share. It just shows that slash and duff are trying to sue axl for every little thing.  I wonder if they even made a phone call to Axl and say what happened with ours checks?

It's great to see a response from Axl's lawyer.? ?: ok:

The attorney, Howard Weitzman, is an extemely prominent celebrity attorney.? ?

"Mr. Weitzman is a two-time recipient of the Jerry Geisler Memorial Award for outstanding trial lawyer in Los Angeles County. He has been profiled in a number of publications and has been recognized as one of the most influential attorneys in the nation, as well as one of the top fifteen lawyers in the country by the National Law Journal.... Mr. Weitzman has been a guest on many national television shows, including ?Larry King Live,? ?Dateline,? and ?Good Morning America.?? Some of the clients Mr. Weitzman has represented include John DeLorean, Marlon Brando, Magic Johnson, Michael Jackson, O.J. Simpson, Courtney Love, Arnold Schwarzenegger, MGM, ICM and Westfield Development Co"

"Howard Weitzman gained prominence in the 1980s as a Los Angeles trial attorney, often standing beside big-name clients. His successful defense of automaker John DeLorean against cocaine, conspiracy and fraud charges made him the lawyer of choice for celebrities who needed serious help. Weitzman, for instance, was the first person O.J. Simpson called after the 1994 murders of the football star's ex-wife Nicole Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman.

(Regarding OJ case, in an appearance on MSNBC's Abrahams Report in March of this year, Weitzman was asked "How you did you end up passing off the O.J. Simpson case?"
Weitzman:? "Well, I wouldn?t say I exactly passed it off.? I just passed on it for personal reasons.? I was with O.J., as you know, for the first 24 hours.? And it just wasn?t a case that I wanted to be involved in for a host of reasons."
Abrams:? "Thought he was guilty?"
Weitzman:? "Well, I clearly have an opinion and I think the jury probably arrived at the wrong verdict.")

I also found references to him advising/representing: Mike Tyson, Fred Savage, Ozzy Osbourne and currently SlipKnot.


He was a partner in the Litigation and Dispute Resolution department at Proskauer Rose from 2001 until May 11, 2005....
Proskauer Rose is the firm we saw named as representing Axl in the first S&D suit.?
So even if he's moved to another firm, since he's made comment regarding this suit on Axl's behalf...? can we assume he's (still) reprensting Axl in the first case??
Is Proskauer Rose out of the picture?? I suppose it would be key for Axl was to keep the same attorney who started on the case.
And with this particular attorney's credentials, from what we can see, I suppose it's a good thing he has.

Give em hell Howard!? ;D

A fuckin 'en is all I have to say, my gut tells me that the world is gonna be up for a rude awakeneing again. (and Im so lawyer, no insight, ......Im just stand by my own beliefs and truths, when this saga is over thier will be the "winners" and the "losers" BUT MORE Than that there will be a community so divided that only CHINESE DEMOCRACY will be able to heal. :-*

Not exactly the list of clientele you'd want to see Axl's name associated with.? :-\

But if he gets Axl cleared, I guess that's all what matters.? So like Eva said...

Give em hell Howard!? ;D

Why is that? Jacko and OJ were guilty as hell but got off. So even if Axl is guilty with this guy he has a good chance at getting out of it with a small loss or none at all.

Ok i will remember these facts. But ill tell you what I wont remember. The 3rd and 4th spins of that disc. The same disc in which I expected a world class guitar hero to give me some mesmorizing solos and not tease with little snips of greatness. Afterall he had years to work on his own stuff as well. I also wont remember the "crossover" hit FTP. The only track on that album worth remembering is YGNR. Other than that...YGNA.....You Got No Album.

So while all the dramas and frustrations might "bring down", "disgrace" the Gnr name...I know that when all the smoke clears...whatever centruy that may be, that the music will bring the name back to where it once was. The music will be on the same level as the old band. And that my friend is something you will neve rbe able to say for a guy who has the talent to do the same but just doesnt wanna....or might just not be able to without 1 very special helper

I would think it would be reversed. If the only peopel here are gnr fans, then gnr fans would know the gnr situation, and then would decide whether they wanna take part in the Axl era of gnr or go there seperate ways with Slash and company. But they just cant seem to move on and leave. I wonder why. I guess its just the name? :no:

That's what I said, isn't it?? :confused:? ?Well maybe I didn't say it too good but that's what I meant.? :yes:

No! I'm with Gypsy. That wouldn't be so good. People might get the wrong impression that Axl was another rich basterd passing himself off as innocent. Fortunately it's not the case. See Eva's quote


Although Mr. Weitzman was called by Simpson, he didn't take on the case because he was doubtful of this clients innocence. He sounds like a lawyer of justice. This lawyer is unlikely to defend an evil. Axl is not guilty.  : ok:

The whole this is/isnt gnr thing is getting old. Even if Axl wanted to called it by another name the label would NOT let him do it. They know the name guns n roses will sell atleast a million copies without even  trying in the USA. They need to make that 15m back. World wide they will do much better with guns n roses attached to this project where as if it was just called Axl Roses  band.

Still cant understand the ContraBand Bashing, Ive been listening to that cd for over 14 months straight now and it still hasnt got old.

The lawsuit news have made music headlines on yahoo france...they'll will soon be followed by MCM tv and radios, they read yahoo...

Such a pity...

it's been mentioned in at least the two biggest papers in norway too. it's obvious that they only care about the sn'd vs. axl fight tho... :no:

W.Axl Rose Responds to Frivolous Copyright Suit by Former Guns N' Roses Members

LOS ANGELES--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 29, 2005--In response to a "frivolous" lawsuit filed against Guns N' Roses leader W.Axl Rose by two former band members claiming Mr. Rose attempted to change the copyright status and the royalty stream earned by the disgruntled pair when they worked with the band Mr. Rose's attorney, Howard Weitzman stated: "This is a classic case of premature accusation. If someone had taken the time to investigate or ask about this situation before rushing to judgment they would have learned that ASCAP (the entity that collects money for songwriters) made a clerical error and failed to appropriately divide and distribute the royalty's owed for the first quarter of 2005 to Axl and the former Guns N' Roses musicians. The amount ASCAP mistakenly sent to Axl's publisher was never received by Axl nor was he ever made aware of the error. The publisher alerted ASCAP to the error, returned the money immediately and asked ASCAP to remedy the situation by distributing the funds appropriately."


Weitzman further comments: "Rather than pick up the telephone and contact Axl or his representatives, his former partners scurried to file a lawsuit that contained false statements about Axl rather then making an effort to learn the truth regarding ASCAP's mistake. Slash and Duff have an unfortunate pattern over the past few years of filing sensational but baseless lawsuits for the purpose of generating anti-Axl propaganda. It is clear that Slash and Duff are looking for another opportunity to spread untruths about Axl in an effort to hurt his reputation and to alienate his fans while at the same time creating a profile for themselves.

"Contrary to allegations in the lawsuit, Axl has never denied that others made substantial contributions towards the success of Guns N' Roses, but there is little doubt as to who was the creative catalyst behind the group's success."


http://home.businesswire.com/

Thanks to Brent


/jarmo

this is just Crazy! But it seems like they can get an agreement here... i doubt it have any delayin on CD

"his FORMER partners"?? All these lawsuits are so confusing!!!? :confused:? Doesn't this statement by Axl's lawyer now give credence to that other lawsuit?

I'm sooooooooooooo confused!!!? ?:crying:

This is exactly what i had said in another post neither slash or duff thought to contact axl or any of his represntatives to find out what was going on they just assume he is trying to steal money from them.  I love slash and duff but im slowly starting to question there integrity when it comes to Axl n the GnR name.

how could slash n' duff be so fucking stupid and do this without making the calls? my god, as if axl would try to fuck them over without getting cought?!?!...

BTW: Hey Jarmo, where's my notification e-mails, haven't gotten any in a days... is it me or you? ;D

Oops; i had said on velvet R site, they didn't know, they shouldnt have gone into this so fast....

Pity pity pity..

But thank god, i couldn't imagine axl do this, not in the name of god.

I'm assuming he means "his former partners in music". Sort of an ex-colleague thing, but I might be wrong on that.

Hopefully this situation will be resolved pretty quickly and there will only be one lawsuit left  ;D

If Axls attorney is right, then hopefully the lawsuit will be resolved quickly.


What lawsuits are these?  To my knowledge theres one other lawsuit, and it seems to have at least some credibility.  Of course hes an attorney, so of course its his job to ignore Axls own questionable moves, like attempting re-record and license old recordings.


Really?   ::)

I think attorneys on both sides should keep these kind of opinions to themselves...

its sad it really is

Not Axl, for sure. I hate his egomaniac comments.

I don't buy this whole thing about Slash and Duff 'alienating his fans'. With no album, no website, no news, no statements, no gigs, no band photos, no communication (direct or indirect) Axl et al are doing a fairly good job of alienating their fans without Slash or Duff.

I have to agree. Sure , they all made wonderful music together. But obviously Axl had a greater vision for the band then that of playing seedy clubs forever and re-recording/releasing AFD every couple years under different titles. It was afterall Axl who wrote and fought for songs like Estranged and November Rain. It was Axl who pushed for huge videos , massive stage sets etc etc .... it was axl who got onstage every night and througout the fans wondered just what they were in store for that very night. Going to see axl rose wasnt just going to see a singer sing. You were going to see this larger then life person who on any given night could be any given thing to any given person.

The band was important and GREAT .. but Axl was head and shoulders more valuable to Guns N Roses then any of them.

And with that ,

Chinese Democracy starts sometime.  : ok:

I think the lawyers last sentence should really say," but there is little doubt as to who was the creative catalyst behind the group's DEMISE!" ?:peace:

Paul Tobias?  ???

Yep, Izzy Stradlin.

The only reason in my opinion that alot of people want to blame axl for this is because he doesnt go to the press or do some kind of interview like slash or duff does he keeps quiet and does what he has to do he doesnt feel the need to go to the press everytime theres something written about him or the old group its never been axls style to to do a whole lot of press even back in there hey day you would have an axl interview here and there he lets his music do the talking no matter how long it takes for it to come out. 

Duff and Slash just need to give it up already.  I obviously don't know all the truth, but it seems like the only one over the breakup is Axl.  Just worry about VR and leave Axl alone.

What does "the breakup" have to do with this, and how does it seem that Axl is any more over it than anybody else?

I like the response axl gave. Seems truthful and they did get there money back. So it seems to me Slash and Duff are the cockfuckers.  Go AXL,  by the way there would be no Slash and duff. If it werent for AXL.

W standard, Booker? :hihi:


Hey why Axl's lawyer should imply him in that case? :hihi:

C C?

well, what a surprise.

yet another statement that castes Axl as the innocent victim being set upon by vidictive and greedy sychophants whose sole purpose in life is to tarnish his name, destroy his reputation in public and bring him down.

Furthermore, it's not Axl who has alienated his fans through releasing no material, cancelling gigs(or just not showing up), attacking past members and discrediting them for creating music that is special to GNR fans,not having a workable website with updates - in fact not communicating with his fans whatsoever other than issuing innane, self-pitying, paranoid rambles from time to time - no it's not Axl thats done the alienating, it's Slash and Duff! Thanks for enlightening me on that point there, it could easily be misunderstood by fans - we could perhaps have been swayed by the greedy talent-free-zone sycophants otherwise known as Slash and Duff!! :-\

Good point, Jimmy. But since it was just a misunderstanding, hopefully both sides can 'move on'. At least until November. :D

Because you dont see Axl or his legal team constantly attacking Slash and Company in the public with their legal problems....


Everytime they mention Axl in public, its always negative. Usually has to do with the whole band name situation. They are trying to divide the fan base and make it seem like Axl is a selfish greedy mofo. Why not just do all that behind the scenes. And then if proven in court come out with it in public and say that in fact Axl was indeed a greedy, selfish mofo because...and u proceed to say why and have proof.

and for those wondering about this comment...

read Sauls response.

Say what you want about the lack of new material and new info....but when has Axl attacked the old band and their contributions? Just because Axl thinks they are liars and are pussies doesnt mean hes discrediting their services. Thats how ?he feels about them and their actions not their music. I have never heard him diss Slash about his guitar worl
Work Ethic and "vision" or philosophy is a completely different matter.

And Im sure as hell happy we have songs like Estranged,NR,Patience, Loco,Madagascar,Etc.....otherwise well....we have another run of the mill rock band

Youngunner, that is exactly how I was going to respond to Booker Floyd's question.  Slash and Duff are constantly in the news attacking Axl.  Get on with your lives.  For all we know, Axl may not even be over it, but he sure as hell isn't in the news every couple of months attacking the old members.

lol are you serious. When does Slash and Duff go out of there way to praise Axl? They respond when asked about Axl contributions. Afterall, Axl is brought up in almost every interview....
They critisize way too many times. If Axl is scamming them fine, make it public...but only when you have proof in court. Why say it in public. Now you look like a bunch of retards. Do things liek that behind the scenes if your intentions are true. Then when you have the proof and the court on your side you may do as you wish in terms of telling the world.

And whos challenging that?
I didnt mention AFD because they are all straight foward rock songs. Actually I should have mentioned SCOM. My point was that without Axl "making/encouraging" the band to do those types of songs we wouldnt have them. We would just have AFD. Which is obiviously cool and great but how many AFD do you really want.

Next thing u know whaxl's lawyers are going to blame Slash & Duff for shaving botaxl's eyebrows off & locking him in his hotel room & forcing him to watch the Lakers play in the finals instaed of going to the Philly show. I mean, besides the fact, that S&D have formed yet ANOTHER multi-platinum band, begun families, toured the world, gone to college, released multiple ablums, opened NYC bars, played Live8, etc., etc., etc......I guess one could say they have yet to move on from that band they quit a decade or so ago that has yet to do shit without them. They want their fucking money & they went about it the proper way one goes about money issues in this country. Why didn't Botaxl, or his yesmen, call S&D when they realised the money had been improperly sent? Someone please tell me this.

I really can't understand why people always feel the need to take sides, I'm an axl fan as much as I am a S&D fan. But I really do think that there are way too much Axl buttkissers on this board, For crying out loud even axl can do something wrong people, (I'm not implying that he did anyhing wrong in this case) I just needed to get that of my chest ;D

When I first stepped into this new GN'R world, without preliminary knowledge or prejudice beforehand (Thanks god I rarely read music magazines!), I was so shocked to discover that a portion of the media, the profession and even the self-styled "true" fans portray him as the nastiest selfish concern ever?which was far from the impression I got from his songs, his looks n expressions seen in the shows n such, and his interviews, that he's a talented and abnormally dedicated musician and an otherwise normal guy.
It seemed to me As if there were some one-sided negative campaign against Axl n the new band going on.

So the following bit rings a bell. Perhaps there is.

However
I still can't believe S n D are the real ringleaders of the campaign.

Yeah im serious. Umm.. BTM music where Slash says the things that make him difficult to deal with are also what fuels the side of him that makes him such an amazing songwriter perhaps? Duff constantly wishing him the best and hoping he finds peace etc... There has never been any statement that I can think of that undermines Axls talent as a singer/songwriter/frontman. Please provide a quote (in context) if im wrong.
Yes, theyve called him out on treating the fans like shit, marginalising them to the point where they quit the band they held dear etc. etc..

As far as suing him over royalties - forgive me if im wrong - but that is the way fiscal matters are resolved in the US am I not right? Perhaps we should take a step back and see what and more specifically who it is that created this mess?And lets see what transpires in the months ahead because im sorry,? a clerical error sounds a tad too convinient to me - Botaxl made a good point of why they didnt contact them upon discovering said clerical error.

AFD was mentioned because the only example that you and people that support your argument use when stating that Axl was the main creative force is NR, Estranged etc... You fail to recognise that small era that most of the world fondly remembers, of AFD and Lies, otherwise known as GNRs golden era or heyday. And yes, Axl played a huge part in that, but it was very much a band that took the world by storm through those incredible albums, volatile live shows etc..
As I said in my last post, Axl was indeed the architect of the more bloated corners of the UYI era, but to most in the rationally thinking world at least, this was far removed from the explosive gang that shook the music world to its very foundations from 87-90

Oh good, now we get to basically champion every word of Axl's response as if it is any more truthful than what we have heard from Slash and Duff so far. What is he going to say? "Yeah, I'm busted...those cocksuckers...."?

Until a judge hears the evidence and a verdict is reached no one knows. As the saying goes, there are three stories: Your side, My side, and the truth.

That's funny, it seems as though for every pro Axl argument, we get a pro Slash and Duff rebuttle.

Well maybe to a simpleton like yourself. What you & your ilk don't seem to understand is that what all us so called pro slash/duff people have been saying over & over for years now is that GnR was a real group effort, the sum was greater than the parts, you will never see a duff/slash fan diminish axl's contribution to their success like the Axl people have, for the most part year after year on this forum. And don't even attempt to deny it, anyone with even a whit of reason know's it's been the case forever around here. You want to be a big axl fan great, knock yourself out, just don't demean the talents & contributions of those who had just as much input as he did in making them what they were.

And then this lawyer makes this statement, as if what he says is the be all & end all,? & all these Axl people's chests get all puffy & they start strutting around & braying on & on about how this somehow proves their point or validates all the weird anger & hatred they hold towards the old members, as if 14 years & counting of nothing from axl is somehow their fault, & not their hero Axl's. Ever heard of projection?

Ahh whatever

exactly. The breakup has nothing to do with this and slash n' duff are attacking axl here, not vica versa...

i bet they'll get their money and we'll get s lame statement about how they should have approched this thing differently...

You guys complaining that Axl never does any fingerpointing seem to have forgotten his habitual bitching during the most recent shows. Did you forget Rio? Did you forget the 'Dive in and find the monkey' press release? How about today's press release?

That the other guys file lawsuits, as opposed to Axl going through the fans and media releases, shouldn't obscure the basic fact that Axl pisses on the other guys, and they, in turn, piss on him.

The only one relatively above the fray is Izzy. As usual.

You need a reality check. Axl rarely talks about the old members. Sure he did it at rio and duringt the 2002 tour but that was after remaining silent since 1996 about them while Duff and Slash were talking shit about Axl ever since they left guns  n roses.

Botax is you so why do you ask?  ::) you better think for yourself.

The reason that the publishing company didn't bother S n D with such a trifle is no brainer.
They weren't filing a suit against S n D.

 ??? I sure as hell wasn't demeaning any talent's and contributions that Duff and Slash had on GNR. ?My point was that Duff and Slash seem to attack Axl every chance they get, and you Duff and Slash lovers attacked me. ?Did I deserve that? :confused:

Booker you really dont make yourself look good when you claim slash and duff dont talk shit about Axl and have not over the past 10 years. I am not even going to quote, just go read their interviews its all there.

Btw this past law suit makes Slash and Duff look REALLY bad and could piss off the courts for not looking into it before suing. Axl really comes out smelling like roses after this.

You're right, man, you didn't deserve it. . I was just venting my frustrations on some of the shit I was reading, & I just lumped you in with them. My apologies.

On these trial of Slash and Duff against Axl, Like one guy said there's only one truth, not sidelines. Let's say Slash and Duff are right, then I think that Axl is deep sh!t.
However, if Axl is right, what then? People say that they would come to an agreement quickly. But I would ask you, what agreement? An agreement that Axl's name has been tarnished  by these sue. And you would say when did they do that?

.....Rose's actions were malicious, fraudulent and oppressive, and undertaken in conscious disregard of [Slash and Duff's] property rights," the lawsuit reads. They're seeking damages for fraud, copyright infringement and breach of fiduciary duty, among other things.........

I hope if Axl is right ,he let it pass. But I would tell you if it was me I would sue them for defamation of my name and persona.  :peace:

If Weitzman is correct, $&D need some serious help. Not only is this sloppy lawyering on their behalf but the statement that followed the filing was slanderous and  untrue. I really hope a judge tosses this nonsense out and teaches these two not to jump to baseless conclusions and make fools of themselves, because right now their behavior appears foolish and vindicative. I really hope they find some peace with themselves in the future; obviously they have issues with losing the name.

Hes telling how he feels about them. I dont seem him saying any of that in press releases. Slash and Duff are accusing him of stealing money and doing it in publiuc. Why not do it behind the scenes until you have the backing of the court with you allegations.
Lets see if they are man enough{if found wrong} to issue an apology to Axl.

They obiviosly havnt. By them keep throwing digs and making accusations that might turn out to be untru they keep wanting to remind the public of the old gnr situation and how they are the victims.Hence they dont wanna move to far away from that.

Well obiviously there out to get Axl. Thats why Axl says shit like that. This whole lawsuit proves that.
As for the name calling...is it the right thing to do? of course not. But thats how teh guy feels towards them. He feels they are lieing to the public. Whether thats all tru or not who knows. Im sure theres truth to it. As is theres truth to what S &D might say about Axl. It goes bopth ways.
The only problem is Axl has decided to keep it to himself for the most part and the good ol boys seem to rehash it every now and then...yea i know how can they avoid it if they are always asked about it...

I highly doubt you will find an Axl quote bashing Slash and company for their contributions. Whether he calls them out on different things is another thing. And is not the same. A handful of SHORT rants by Axl standards is nothing compared to the countless times we have heard Slash and Duff speak about the subject.

Do you honestly think Axl is trying or tries to get the fans to hate Slash? Do you think he wants them to think that all of old gnr was only him?

I highly doubt you will find an Axl quote bashing Slash and company for their contributions. Whether he calls them out on different things is another thing. And is not the same. A handful of SHORT rants by Axl standards is nothing compared to the countless times we have heard Slash and Duff speak about the subject.

You're yet to provide the quote I requested where Slash and Duff slam Axls ability as a frontman/singer/songwriter.

as soon as u provide me the quote in which i said that Slash and Company slam Axls musical ability

i understand why you would get defensive about someone criticizing axl's music or songwriting abilities, but why take it so personally when they say something bad about his personality? i mean, do you know him? is he a personal friend? would he stick up for you if someone said something bad? is anyone in this thread actually going to change someone else's opinions on this matter just by repeating the same stuff over and over and over?

let me summarize the last few pages here:

crazy fan #1: "axl is an asshole"
crazy fan #2: "no, slash and duff are assholes"
[repeat ad nauseum]

i really dont get why some people get so defensive. look, neither axl nor slash nor duff are perfect people. hell, does anyone remember the accusations against axl in his divorce proceedings? jesus christ the man is not a saint. everyone knows this. who cares. why try to protect his image? that's his responsibilty if he so chooses, not yours. slash and duff are out to get axl? how can you make such a blanket statement like that with a straight face? for all you know, maybe they got some wrong information from their lawyers, who knows? i doubt slash and duff personally drafted their court complaint themselves.

people have every right to comment on their music, because ultimately that's why we're all here, but leave the personal stuff aside. you don't know them, and they don't know you.

seriosly, this thread sounds like a frickin soap opera...

sorry, had to get that off my chest.

DaveGnR2K99 - let's be realistic, both sides have talked about the other one. And let's also be realistic - you've never heard anyone say Slash or Duff or Matt or Izzy were hard to work with. You've heard DOZENS of people, from producers to musicians to ex-wives say that Axl was difficult to be around.  As for making S&D look bad... Huh?  We've heard two sides and each believes they are right. We don't know the truth at all. 

What we do know, for a FACT, is that over the last 10 years, Axl has released no new music, cancelled a tour that sold poorly, no-showed from two shows, caused 2 riots, shown up late for most of his concerts, released no new videos, albums, singles, never updated his website, gone through DOZENS of musicians and producers, been a complete recluse, shot himself up with botox, gotten cornrows, and gained a lot of weight... and then you say something "makes Slash and Duff look REALLY bad"??? LOL.

er... I did already? ???

 I dunno but I think you toally have no clue about anything that is real or false.



"gone through DOZENS of musicians"..........hmmmmm now thts alot . damn that well be over 48. Maybe  math isnt a good subject for you.

"cancelled a tour that sold poorly, no-showed from two shows, caused 2 riots"........... now as for the vancouver show , it was the venue that cannceled it, everyone was ready to play. do some research, and philly. well there isnt anyone here can say difinitly what happened , cause no one has said shit, other than the rumours you chose to believe.


"shot himself up with botox"......now that was stupid.who give a fuck.


Just another day in this drama,.and who wants what.

I knew someone from Axl's camp would set this right  : ok:

I dont think its possible for me to lose more respect for those 2 greedy assclowns that are doing everything they possibly can to keep Axl, and the GNR Name down  :no:

but its true, look how sue happy they have been ever since Axl came back in the public spotlight in 2002 for a brief period.  fuck those assholes.

Slash is a liar, it's been proven over the years. and duff is his bitch.

Fuck'em both, if only they knew how to make a decent album, then maybe I would overlook the fact that they are idiots.

I kindly refer you to this subject to back up your statements since no has done so in that thread

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=22251.0

Wow SIG you also need a reality check and learn your gnr history. First off, you never heard anyone say that Slash was hard to work with? Did you ever hear Josh Todd talk about working with Slash? If not you really should go look it up, he said pretty much what Axl always said about him. Everytime something seemed to be a little differnt but worked Slash would nix it and say it doesnt work. So there is one strike against you.

You claim this producers have said that Axl is hard to be around? That is funny since most of them said how nice and professional Axl is to work for.  Just look at what people like Brian May to Josh Freese has said about him.  You never heard them say a bad thing about Axl. The only thing you could call negative that they would say about him is he is taking too long with this album and is a perfectionist is more than I can say for Slash and Duff who just like to half ass their songs and call it an album. The only reason that slash and duff did not like working with Axl is because he wanted them to  be clean and he would not stand for anything less than their best. Its too bad they where not willing to give it thus one of the reasons they left the band.

As for ex wives, um they are ex wives, you take anyones exs that had a bad break up and they are not going to talk nice about them, that is why the are an ex. So that is two strikes against  you.

Now you claim that Axls tour sold poorly, thats funny since they sold more tix than Vr did. I guess selling out places in bigger venues like NYC, boston and Philly is not good right? The places that were only half full were the boonies so of coarse they are not going to sell out, plus there was no promotion or album for the tour yet they still out tons of tickets.

As for the two no shows the first was explained because of plane trouble, of coarse you failed to mention that, as for Philly that was never explained by Axl or Clear Channel for that matter.  As for Axl causing the riots again you need a reality check,Axl did not cause the riots the idiot fans caused the riot.  I have gone to cancelled shows before and there has NEVER been a riot. Its just stupid gnr fans who think its cool to break stuff when a show gets cancelled.  You want to talk about cancelled shows VR cancelled a bunch of shows too, but of coarse you wont mention that.

As for axl gaining weight,  and his hair. And you point of that is? You do know that when people get old their gain weight right? axl was far from fat but of coarse people like you just look at the pics where he is exhauling yet ignore the pics where he looks fine like the HOB pic when he has the six pack.

That is strike three probaly strike six, but nice try booker. Its really sad you could not even stick to the topic. You did  not mention the law suit once which is typical for  you. Go back to the gnr board and ruin that one with your trying to bring threads off topic but please atleast be honest and give all the facts and stop leaving out key info that you are so known for.

There is a reason you did not mention the law suit in your long boring, tired post. Its because you know slash and duff are 100% wrong and they look like asses they could not make a phone call to Axl and see why they did not get their checks. They did not even have to make it, their lawyer could have. But this once again shows that Slash and Duff cant get over being out of guns n roses. They really should move on because this is getting old.

Then I suppose you make yourself look worse when you cant give a list of examples to back up the point your making.


 :hihi:

Of course youre not.  Slash does nothing but lie, but you cant name any lies.  He does nothing but "talk shit" about Axl and you dont give any examples.  So dont worry about I look... : ok:

Don't know how true it is but I heard on the radio this morning that SnD are NOT dropping this lawsuit.

When I got to work, I tried to find the quote on the radio station's website but the "news" on their site is about a week old.? :-\

Good point, Booker. :beer: I am also tired of hearing this shit about Duff and Slash's constant lies. I cant wait for some of these guys to whip out that decade long list of lies they've been talking about. It's gonna be an interesting read. The only place they're likely to find that list is in the Twilight Zone.

I can think of one thing Slash lied about:

Didn't Slash say recently that he quit GN'R right after recording SFTD in late '94? But in '95 he always maintained he was in Guns N' Roses, and that Snakepit 95 was intended to be the next Guns album.

If Weitzman can back up his claims, he will make Slash and Duff look very very bad. Frankly after that statement they  made last week, they deserve it.

No.  slash said that "Sympathy for the devil" was 'the sound of the band breaking up'.  He did not say he actually left the band after recording it, and he also never said he intended the snakepit record to be entirely the next GNR album.  He said some of the material he was writing was taken to Axl and Axl turned it down flat.  It wasnt a matter of saying 'hey Axl, here's the next record!'.  It was just some material to be worked on.  And Slash said he then took it and jammed with the rest of the guys for awhile and out came the Snakepit record.

so no, Slash didn't lie about anything you said.

I don't have a link, so I might be wrong, but I could have sworn that I read Slash said he quit GN'R after SFTD and he talked told Keith Richards.

HAHAHAHA! ?Dave, you are so right! ?Thing is, as you already know, for Axl its always a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". ?When he's silent - then surely its because he has no valid response to their lies and accusations *sarcasm*... ?and when he speaks he is being an asshole.

Axl has publicly expressed his feelings towards his "former friends" and cautioned us that "no matter what you have seen or heard" that his efforts to move forward with his career with GN'R have been under seige from his former associates. ?YES he said it at the HOB, Yes he said it at RIR3, Yes he said it at the Pepsi Arena in Albany on the 02 Tour...! ?And what is the contention of all those who would seek to invalidate his statements and feelings (as if they could! ::)) ?Cries of "Axl is just being a prick.... and asshole... etc." ?HA! ?Axl knows the 'fans' oh so well... ?Axl said that there would be those who would say that...!

"Now as soon as I say this it'll be on an MP3, someone will transcribe it, and the next person will say "Can you believe Axl said that? I mean my god. I mean he hasn't put out a record. I don't know why he would say that. I mean who does he think he is? That's not very nice. The other guys, they have gotten over it and they're his friend now and they're willing to be his friend and he just needs to grow up." I'm sorry. I'm a little bit more blunt. I mean Slash may sound like a De La Hoya, but he's the fuckin Vargas. That's just how it is. And just because he's got a bunch of guys agreeing doesn't mean shit. The truth is that they're a bunch of bad cops and I'm the fuckin Serpico and they can 'suck my dick'!"

Axl is defending himself against all those who to this day seek to DEMONIZE him... ?whether through deceit or ignorance, outright lies or outright stupidity, those who crucify him and hold him responsible for their own decisions - readily sacrificing Axl the scapegoat on the public altar of the press - and the public, the fans, .... ?consuming it in their firey rage because they feel it's owed to them... ? someone's gotta 'pay' for the sin of GN'R's breakup! ?so the crowd cheers on the action like spectators at the collesium living vicariously through the display or strength by their hero gladiator.

And Axl should proceed meekly like a the lamb being led to the slaughter.
Simply because YOU or YOU or HIM or THEY have judged him... he should roll over? ?he should turn the other cheek? ?he should take his licks? ?accept defeat?

I don't THINK so! ?

Axl is NOT going down without a fight. ?Tooth and nail... ?as sharp and cutting as the acid that surely churns in his bowels when they spew forth their bitter accusations.

"Suffering an apparent attack of arrogance and ego ... Rose recently decided.. blah, blah, blah"

well, well, well....

how about this?:

"Suffering an apparent attack of ignorance, malevolence, acridity AND stupidity... Slash and Duff recently declared Axl to be a hateful, lying, theiving bitch."

Oh, what's that you say? ?No? ?They didn't say that? ?Um... ? yes, they did. ?They just didn't have the BALLS to say it themselves... ? their mouthpiece declaring Axl "malicious, fraudulent and oppressive". ?

Fine. ?Don't 'take a side'. ?But regardless, either you believe that Axl is a blatant, lying, cheating, theiving, arrogant asshole - stupid or brazen enough (I don't know which they claim) to leave a papertrail of embezzlement that leads to his front door like Hansel's breadcrumbs! - either you believe that OR YOU DON'T.

IF you don't then you next have to ask yourself, then what does that make Slash and Duff? ?They are the ones that are claiming these things - in this suit and the prior. ?
The best case scenario I've heard in their defense is that "they probably don't even realize that their lawyers threw all this in there (in the lawsuits). ?

If you're still clinging to this shred of hope... ? If you still want to grant them immunity from associatoin from their own low down dirty criminal accusations of Axl I can understand that.
I can understand that it's hard to beleive that they themselves really believe what they are claiming. ?Its even more difficult to accept that they would claim these things not believing them to be true! ?

What would you imagine Slash would respond if asked whether he really believes that "Ax"... his "bro, ?is a theif? ?How about you Duff? ?Axl's stealing your money? ? Y

Matt has at least had the BALLS to shoot the shit out of his own mouth! ?Slash and Duff have positioned themselves to be ready to claim deniablity of thier lawyers actions.

And IF (which I DON'T believe for an instant) IF they were SO clueless as to not be aware of what their charges are, of what their claims accuse - then just for being THAT stupid - they earn my disdain.

 

In several interviews that can be found on this site, Slash states he quit in 1996 after touring with Snakepit and then discovering that he and Axl couldn't exist.  On Behind the Music, Slash said that "Sympathy for the devil" was 'the sound of the band breaking up', but didn't say he quit after that.

That rings a bell.

I think I found the article: http://www.1057thepoint.com/new_rock_news/Display.aspx?ID=38198

Apparently Keith made him stick with GN'R for a little longer....

"It kept me in there for as long as humanly possible. (Unfortunately) I was dealing with somebody who didn't want to do anything but drag the ship down."

There's also something a bit negative about Axl in that sentense for those who never seen Slash say anything negative about Axl. ?;)

---

Here's more about Slash quitting GN'R etc from over the years:

Looking at a hypothetical scenario where GN'R split up, who actually owns the Guns N' Roses name?

"As far as contractually - and this is a discrepancy between myself and our attorneys - apparently Axl owns it. Now I should have known that, because I could have then said: "Okay." I don't give a fuck who owns the name. But I find out later that Axl legally owns it - apparently.

Guns N' Roses: Is It All Over? Does Anyone Care? (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=16)
Metal Hammer November 1995


What are the plans for GNR? When is the new album coming out and how about a tour?
Slash Says: Right now, Axl and I are deliberating over the future of our relationship.

- October 16th, 1996



"Axl and I have not been capable of seeing eye to eye on Guns N' Roses for some time. We recently tried to collaborate, but at this point, I'm no longer in the band. I'd like to think we could work together in the future if we were able to work out our differences."

- October 30, 1996


I don?t know how familiar you are with Guns history, but I quit the band five years ago and haven?t looked back since. Axl?s probably still in them, but I haven?t seem him. He?s just a really fucking huge mindfuck.

Slash?s Heroes & Villains (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=36)
NME, October 7, 2000

Axl is making the call for whatever his 3 percent of the band is worth. He's making the call these days. My life was just miserable then. I couldn't deal with it. So I just left. So when he wanted to use the name Guns N' Roses I said sure, I didn't want anything to do with it.

Slash Interview
Steppin' Out Magazine, May 16th, 2001 (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=43)




/jarmo

 The only reason that slash and duff did not like working with Axl is because he wanted them to? be clean and he would not stand for anything less than their best. Its too bad they where not willing to give it thus one of the reasons they left the band.


Uh, the reason they left is because they were tired of Axl's egotistical, me me me attitude. ?Let's see, izzy left b/c of Axl. Duff and Slash left b/c of Axl. Matt obviously doesn't like Axl. ?So it's the whole band vs Axl. ? Not to mention Buckethead, Paul Huge, Josh F, and all the others that have been through Axl's revolving door.


The places that were only half full were the boonies so of coarse they are not going to sell out, plus there was no promotion or album for the tour yet they still out tons of tickets.


Los Angeles was half sold. A boony town? ?The promotion argument is tired and old and completely untrue. ?The album argument is even dumber considering bands like STeve Miller, The Eagles, Styx, and others tour every year without new albums.

As for the two no shows the first was explained because of plane trouble, of coarse you failed to mention that,

You're right. ?There was plane trouble. ?The trouble was that Axl didnt' get on the plane on time FOR HIS FIRST SHOW OF THE TOUR.

as for Philly that was never explained by Axl or Clear Channel for that matter.?
Axl has a very long history of going on stage late, not showing up, walking off stage, etc. ?Other musicians, Metallica, opening acts - they've all talked about it. ?How can you even attempt to argue Axl's checkered concert history?

As for axl gaining weight,? and his hair. And you point of that is? You do know that when people get old their gain weight right?

Old? he's in his early 40s. Sitting on your ass for 10 years will certainly make you fat. ?

Its because you know slash and duff are 100% wrong and they look like asses they could not make a phone call to Axl and see why they did not get their checks. They did not even have to make it, their lawyer could have. But this once again shows that Slash and Duff cant get over being out of guns n roses. They really should move on because this is getting old.

Obviousl we dont know who is wrong or right yet. ?Sounds like you though do. Are you an insider? ?As for moving on - One side formed a new band, released a platinum album, toured the world, is working on a 2nd album and plays 2-3 Gnr songs on tour. ?The other side is still in something called Guns n Roses, hasn't released anything, toured half the US, is still working on his 1st album, and played many many old songs on tour. ?Who hasn't moved on???

What Axl's weight has to do with the topic is beyond me. ??? I think Slash gained lots of weight but so what?


And it will cost them dearly.....They should have counted the cost.
Haste makes waste.

Seemingly, it's the same with their way of the other thing.

 ::) um.  gnrisSlash . clever user name but tell me, are you not satified with VR. shouldnt it be VRis Slash? or am I reading that wrong, cause as far asI  know (being a fan from the 80s, ) that the origional lineup dont exist anymore.These lawsuits are pathetic, and more than that, shows me how much (and by jarmos digging of quotes FROM Slash) they were really fucked uped. now they are "clean" but dont count on that lol.... no need to metion the night they rented out the MErcury Loungue in NYC for a bachlor party last yr:O . apparently slash wsnt to sober that night.

BUT bottom line is at least on my part, cause it was those 5 fuck ups that I loved the music of, but as they evloved I had also, and after seing GNR of todays line up at MSG , no ne can tell me that AXl hsnt been doin what he set out, and keepin GNR alive, now all we have is vindictive and bitter ex-band mates who are pissed that they were fucked uped . 

Slash responding to the question (about the break up of GN'R):  "I don't want to make Axl a scapegoat, but there's no one else to blame".

This folks is what it's all about.  Grown men who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.... why should they when its sooo easy to blame Axl?  ::)
And now, as if to 'prove' their cause as victims...   they accuse him of outright theivery.  It's just pathetic.

So did Slash leave because of Duff?  Matt?  Dizzy?

Did Duff leave because of um..whoever was in the band in 1997, '98?

Did Matt leave because of Duff?

And Daves post was "so right," and Duff and Slash have talked shit about Axl since they left, but Matts the only one to "shoot shit out of his own mouth?"

Booker, after reading the last 4 or 5 posts, is that enough now for you to believe that Slash constantly attacks Axl and takes no responsibility in the matter?

Wow, agree 100%. Axl has to defend himself and should not be criticized for doing so. He was accused of criminal acts by his former partners in a statement released to the world. It was slanderous, mean, and apparently complete bullocks. I really feel bad for S&D; they have dug a huge hole for themselves. It is possible now that this incident could come up in trial in November as an example of their unscrupulous activity.

And wow, jarmo, those quotes are killers for Slash. It states he quit the band and left axl behind. Sounds like he quit the partnership, doesn't it?

What does this even mean?

Yeah, Slash has blamed a large part of the disintegration of the band on Axl...so has Matt, Duff and Izzy. ?Are those "attacks?" ?Is calling Axl a "mindfuck" really an attack? ?If so, then what do you think of Axl calling Slash a liar in a press release? ?Or telling the ex-members to suck his dick? ?Or any of the other criticisms hes made in the small amount of press hes done?  The truth is, Slash and Duff have had a lot of opportunities, especially lately, to really bash Axl if that was their goal.  But theyve been pretty diplomatic for the most part.  How easily could they have joined Howard Stern in making fun of Axl?  They didnt, and Matt Sorum of all people actually put an end to the Axl discussion. 

What exactely could they say Booker? They dont say anyhting because they dont have anythign to back it up. A} They nor any1 else have no idea what Axl is up to.
B} They could never attack Axls music until the album is out. They dont have an album to boast about themselves so it wouldnt be wise for them to critisize about music.

Slash and Duff can say whatever they want about Axl. But as Axl says when its all said and done and you look intop the sotry and not just believe it because its 2 vs 1, S&D just bark theres no real bite... they end up swingin with no heat....vargas :hihi:

We all know Axl is hard to work with. O well get over it. But hes also the key to the popularity you crave.

Ok so they can take part with the rest of America and call Axl fat, fake, no eyebrows, rap wanna be. Join the club SLash and company. Show your creative side. Ill give them credit though. They try to add more fuel to the fire about Axl being a selfish asshole with this new lawsuit. Its ashame they look like idiots.

I wonder if Slash and Duff regret getting fucked up all those years. And are now just bitter old men about it. All that partying cost them a part of the wheel. the wheel to the greatest band in the world that they helped create. But will not help finish.

No1 can put an end to Axl besides Axl. Who the fuck is Matt Sorum?

Here is why Slash left IN HIS OWN WORDS:
(in no particular order)

http://www.metal-sludge.com/CelebritySludgematchRound1.htm
Slash: "I quit the group because of musical differences. I wanted to continue doing the hard rock thing, and he wanted to do techno-rock or something. We?re still to see the end result. I just do what I do because that?s what I like doing, but his thing seems to be a little more convoluted."
---------------------------
Digging the Pit
by Sandy Masuo
Slash: I thought we were just getting good at what we were doing and Axl headed in a different direction. I was basically too fucking stubborn -- still trying to perfect the one thing I was just getting good at to be able to go there. My whole trip is still based around the same original concept from when I started playing when I was 15? For me it?s basically all the same shit, and as far as what Axl had in mind I?m still waiting for the [next] Guns N? Roses record to come out to see what that was. That?ll be a huge relief for me.

---------------------------
March 20, 2001
JEFF VRABEL | STAFF WRITER
http://www.nudeasthenews.com/interviews/42
NATN: Have you heard any of the new GNR? Do you have any desire to?

S: I have heard some of the new band, and it's exactly what Axl wanted to do. It's the exact thing he was working on when I quit. It's finally immortalized. "
-------------------

AND "IT" isn't techno rock is it?

Slash says himself he was stubborn. ?Slash says himself he made half assed attempts at working with Axl. ? Slash left because of musical differences.... and an inability or unwillingness to bridge those difference.

How is that Axl's fault? ?Axl was excited about the songs that Slash brought in! ?But when he tried to work on them with Slash, Slash refused. "I was basically too fucking stubborn -- still trying to perfect the one thing I was just getting good at to be able to go there."~Slash.

And as for 'Axl's version' of why Slash left, Axl said that Slash left over control issues. ?Where is the disparity? ?Where is dishonesty? ?Where is the disagreement?

Based on all this, it should be clear to see that Slash did not believe in the future of GN'R... ? ?didn't believe he could evolve or progress with Guns or had no desire to be any part of any such thing.

The facts of the matter are plain and simple in Slash's own words. ?In Axl's own words. ?


October 20, 1999
"I sort of made a half-assed attempt at going back to Guns," he says. "But at the end of the day it was half-hearted, and I realized it wasn't going to happen....



Slash did not want to be in GN'R anymore.... as Axl has said he 'didn't want to work that hard'. ?As Slash himself has said he just wanted to keep working on and perfecting what he was doing since he was 15 - he felt they were "just getting good enough at it to be up there" (wtf?!! - I think he understimates his potential.)

regarding the reference someone questioned regrarding 'the Sympayh for the Devil incident', See below:

http://www.snakepit.ws/rc.asp
From Record Collector Magazine February, 2001, by Joel McIver
You said it's been five years since you've spoken to Axl, because he never could agree about anything. Was the one specific incident that set it off?
Slash: It really started when we covered "Sympathy for the Devil" for the "Interview With a Vampire" movie. I saw the first screening with the Stone's version still on it, and I thought it was fine. Fuck, why do we need to do it? But then Axl went to see it and he loved the movie ? see, I hated it.

"why do we need to do it?" ?WTF?! Give me a break... ? No one ever needs to do a cover! ?And it's thinking like this that Axl had to deal with... ?
--------------------------

As to the rest of your surly questions....

I recall Duff making a comment to the effect that he left because it wasn't "GN'R" to him anymore... after Slash left that is.
I think that Slash's departure was the key to 'the GN'R break-up'. ?And not a few fans would agree... ? ;)
I suppose you maintain, still, that (Slash's departure) to be Axl's fault? See above.

And Duff's own words which support the essence of what I cited above:

Neurotic Outsiders chat, December 17, 1996
http://hem.passagen.se/snoqalf/tr-19960730-chat-s.html
JH: ?"Duff, is GNR going to change their style? Is that what Axl wants?"
DUFF McKAGEN I don't know. We progress naturally. As far as the rumor that one person wants us to change, that's just not true.


As for Matt. ?Axl fired Matt. ?I think not a few fans would thank him for that! ?:P


YES, Dave's post is "so right".... Duff and Slash have taked shit about Axl since they left... ?
AND Matt has with his own mouth accused Axl of "screwing (him) out of royalties." WHEREAS To my knowledge, Slash and Duff to date haven't had the balls to accuse Axl of the theivery thier lawsuits alledge - not in their own words, NOT WITH THEIR OWN MOUTHS.

Did you get it now? ?

I say they are being pussies. ?They want to call Axl a theif and a liar through their lawyer.... ?Don't they have the balls to spew that shit themselves?! ?Hm..?

You weirdo's all realise they filed a lawsuit because they are looking to retrieve the ten of thousands of $'s that is rightfully theirs? When this much money is at stake one has to file a lawsuit to shed light on the subject & assure that the matter will be handled truthfully in a court of law. U really think Slash & Duff are sitting around trying to come up with ways to dick over some tired old hasbeen who does a good enough job of making a fool out of himself on his own? U all realise that Slash & Duff are currently in another multi-platinum band & have obviously moved on with their lives, but just want to get the money that is rightfully theirs. Do u freaks honestly think Slash & Duff are really doing this so the world thinks Botaxl is a bad guy? So if someone/a group of people somehow swindled u out of tens of thousands of dollars that is rightfully yours, u wouldn't take them to court over it? Can't wait to hear the rationalizations for this one.

I have no sympathy for them. ?They are out to get Axl. ?It may very well come back and bite them in the ass.
I think in their efforts to discredit Axl, they have probably un-earthed a world of evidence that Weitzman may use to show that they abandoned the partnership.
I noticed how they ask for "partnership documents and files". ?When is the last time they were in the offices of the GN'R partnership? ?Who files the parntership tax return? ?Who answered the "Don't Cry lawsuit"? ?I believe Axl /agents which Axl has retainted and paid ever since forever have been handling the GN'R partnership and affairs. ?And why? ?Because when they quit they left Axl to deal with everything! ?I believe the most involvement they've had is perhaps signing obligatory documents which require their signatures.

Its a theory of mine. ?We'll see. ? :yes:

I don't get most of you people. It's easy to blame Axl or to worship Axl  ::)
It's easy to pick a side but none of them are saints to follow the one or the others.
Personally, Axl accusers are more annoying to me than the Axl lovers. Also, the former member's accusers are annoying too. Why showing antipathy for someone? it makes you miser.

The point is, the former members fell to Axl's trap (whether it was planned or not). They showed low-mindedness, they didn't treat the case smartly.

Oh, and btw both Axl and S&D blame one each other often. Axl wants to prove why they weren't worthy to be part of GN'R (and boost his own line up) by saying Slash's didn't want GN'R to advance or they didn't give any interest... and the old members want to give an excuse why they left the band by saying Axl's selfish, megalomaniac, weirdo and trendy.

Mostly I've been just reading this rather heated debate, but something which has come up repeatedly is Slash and Duff speaking through their lawyers, and why don't they have the "balls" to say it themselves.? For starters, one could surmise that the lawyer is either misquoting the two of them, or taking it out of context.? Rock n roll fans should all know that whenever -- and I mean anytime -- someone repeats something that was said by someone else, it oftentimes is taking out of context.

Secondly, even if the lawyer quoted them word for word, what about Axl's lawyer?? he made that condescending little comment about Axl being the catalyst of GNR music.? Do you really think Axl had nothing to do with that little stab?? Does that sound like something a lawyer (who doesn't have any personal emotion invested in GNR) would just make up?  So how is that remark any different than Slash and Duff "speaking through their lawyer?"


Oh yes, and Eva, there is one of your examples you took out of context.? You said Axl was "excited" to work on Slash's songs back then, and then you quoted a Slash comment (about being stubborn) which was actually not the answer to the "axl was excited" issue.? Slash's actual side of the story was that he took some of his material to Axl and that Axl said "i'm not playing this shit".? So after Slash did the snakepit record, Axl comes back to Slash and says "let's try that material" and Slash said something like "sorry, that material is gone, and if I remember correctly, I was refused flat-out".

Believe whomever you choose, but I just wanted to set the record straight about the example you gave.

As far as these lawsuits go, I really don't give a shit one way or the other.  It is millionaires hammering out their differences over more money, who cares? 

I do think that it seems like Axl wrote that last statement and gave it to his lawyer to release.  I mean, the whole tone of it is just so paranoid, "anti-Axl propaganda"?, a tad on the dramatic side.  The whole thing just seems so full of personal venom. 

I don't know if I believe the "clerical error" bit, seems a bit contrived.  Although I don't know what S&D's chances are, one thing that Axl has always schooled himself on is legal issues, he's been lawyer happy for years and years.  So it's hard to believe that he would do these things if he wasn't certain that he would get away with it. 

Before this thread I didn't have a problem with any of the "old guys" but now after reading this I'm starting to dislike Axl just because of the naive people who "love" him.

S&D release a statement about how Axl steals their money....their liars ???
But when Axl releases his statement it's true ???.....Come on people Get your head out of Axl's ass for fuck sake

I bet the suit will be dismissed very soon.

Booker what is the point of posting the lies and trash talking Slash and Duff have done toward Axl when everyone knows its fact. There was a huge thread about Slash and duff being liars a while ago, and that had most of the info in their how they always change their story.

You are really a sad person when you know what I am saying is true. I am not wasting my time posting the articles when you can just go find them.? Plus a lot of them are in mag articles that I am not digging up.

It?s like me telling you the world is round then you demanding proof that is it by quotes and stuff.? ::)

But just to appease you one of the most recent lies that Slash said was that Axl only had a few songs with vocals done, and we all knew that was a lie. Duff claimed that Axl never wrote any of the music in guns n roses that was another lie.

But of coarse when they are caught in the lie they just claim they are misquoted, how convenient.


Also here is part of an article of many that Slash talks shit about Axl.

THE RAZZ: SLASHED AND BURNED
Mar 5 2004

Axl Rose



"Even to this day I still don't care. But now he's dragged it through the mud so much that even if he said, 'Look guys, I've been to therapy and I'm a better person now, let's get back together anddo a show.' We'd all be like, we don't want to be in that band. 'None of us would have even bothered to think about taking the name."

So is that not talking shit booker? Its also a lie that they dont care about the name since they keep suing Axl. Wow booker that is a double whamy.

Slash said: 'The way things were headed I wanted to quit while it was still cool.

"I didn't want to go down the drain with Axl in that sense."

More bad mouthing Axl. If its not what do you call it booker?

That is just once recenty snipet of an interview.

There are plenty more but that is all you really need to know since it keeps talking like that in most of his interviews when Axls name comes up.

You Lose booker. AGAIN


Slash is not god learn to quote because your post was a mess and I am not going to try and figure it out.

Usually in legal matters the lawsuit at hand can't be talked about from either side, so thats why Slash , Duff and Axl really haven't publicly spoken about it and it is dealt with their lawyers, hence the term lawyers.  Come on people.   "We judge a book by its cover and read what we want, between selected lines"

 This feud is too immature with this 'not talking to each other bullshit. " They're in their mid/early 40's , I don't know why one of them can just pick up the damn phone and come up with something they can all agree on. Just because it would be a conversation doesn't mean they have to reunite. Right now Slash and Duff are in a band making lots of money from touring all over the world and thier first album has gone platinum. I don't understand why they're all too chicken-shit to talk to Axl about it. For the past few years, Axl has been given a bad rep because of the media. So Slash and Duff need to put better locks on the door with their hunger for money and ego's before they lose their respect they've earned. Two wrongs don't make a right, the grudge they've been holding is getting old, and it's too late to get their revenge on Axl for God know's what.

I already pointed out that they have built in deniability... they can claim that they aren't/weren't aware of the nature or extent of the allegations - and to be clear the extent of the allegations is that Axl is accused of being a theif.

What is there for their lawyer to 'take out of context' anyway? ?In what context would/could these allegations not label Axl a theif?


So, Slash and Duff's lawyer(s) are the someone in your scenario... and they may not be representing Slash and Duff accurately?
Once again, like I have said already - because they have made these allegations through their lawyer, they have built in deniablity.
(Not that Duff hasn't denied direct quotes, although repeating the same comments he denied making in 2 other interviews ::))
Further, I never contended that the lawyer's comments or the wording contained in either lawsuit was a "direct quote".
I SAID that Slash and Duff have not made any direct comments to the press or otherwise in public regarding the allegations contained in their lawsuits against Axl. ?

Now let me ask you... if after giving an interview the subject of the interview/article read the article before it was published, signed it and even paid the author to publish it... ?would that not mean that this person was giving it their approval (at the very least?). ? You would have to say "Yes." ?In fact one could say that by paying for the piece to be published they commissioned it. ?Well, what do you think happens before a lawyer files a lawsuit on behalf of his client? ?

But, no mind, as I've stated multiple times now, they still have room to deny knowledge of the nature and extent of the allegations simply by claiming that they didn't understand what was contained in the lawsuits or what they meant. ?They could just say: "We just signed where our lawyers told us to sign... we didn't know it was saying Axl was a theif." ?

Which is why I keep saying its pathetic that they use their lawyer and thier lawsuits to attack Axl and accuse him of theivery whilst they hide behind the saftey buffer of deniability... all in an effort to perpetuate the ideal that they are the good guys and Axl is the evil arragogant asshole who would steal from them. ?Puh-leese. ?Pa-thetic. ?Makes me sick.


First of all a catalyst is something that activates... motivates... ?inspires... energizes... stimulates... compels even to movement and/or r development that which it is part of. ?What Mr. Weitzman 'condescended' is far from calling someone a theif.

Anyway, Axl has himself had the balls to 'condescend' the following: ?

(In voice of whining fan) 'Y'know without Axl and Slash we wouldn't have November Rain and Estranged." Well you don't know what the fuck I went through to get that guy to play those songs. You don't know about the argument we had at K&M studios, because Duff and Slash came to me going "We're not gonna do that song, we're not gonna do this song, nope, nope, we're just not gonna do it." But I wanna do it. We'll do it right now. This song is called 'patience'." ~ Axl Rose, Pepsi Arena, Albany NY ?11/27/02

"You can only do so many pull-ups"

"I've always been the one held responsible from day one.... ?I've been the one that knows how to get us from point A to point B"

Axl has never attempted to deny nor hesitated to take credit the credit (or blame) for controlling or guiding the band creatively.

Addressing the absence of his old band members, Rose suggests he simply needed to take control to survive. ''It is the old story that you are told when you're a kid: 'Don't buy a car with your friends,' ', he says with his eyes straight ahead.

''Nobody could get the wheel. Everybody had the wheel. And when you have a bunch of guys, I'm telling you, you are driving the car off the cliff. The reality is, go buy those guys' solo records. There are neat ideas and parts there, but they wouldn't have worked for a Guns N`Roses record.

Hear that? ?How condescending, eh?! ? :hihi: ?

Wait, theres more: ?

"(Axl) clearly believes there was some effort inside the band to destroy him, one born partly of the jealousy that followed fame singling him out. ''When we were in airports and people are ignoring Duff and asking for my autograph, that didn't go over so well,'' Rose recalls. ''The guys would say, you know, 'What am I? Linoleum? What am I? Wood?' '' Things became progressively uglier. ''There was an effort to bring me down,'' he says. ''It was a king of the mountain thing.''

Again, how condescending ?:hihi: - Axl saying he was the most famous/popular in the band?! ? :hihi:
LOL! ?Axl has the balls to say these things for a print interview in Rolling Stone magazine...?!
And you ask me if Axl was perhaps hiding behind his lawyer when the recent comments were released to the press by Mr. Weitzman?!
And you have to ask me how Duff and Slash accusing Axl of theivery not once but twice through lawsuits but not having the balls to otherwise acknowledge thier accusations is different? ? ?C'mon!


I never claimed the quotes to be a running conversation. ?I never said that Slash's comments were a direct response to Axl's.
Nor did I take the quote out of context - I put it in the exact proper context. ? Context refers not soley to being within the confines of surrounding text literally. ?The meaning of context also encompasses 'the circumstances in which events occur, a setting'. ?

Axl spoke about being excited about Slash bringing in a lot of material. ?This is during the Post-Illusions / Pre break-up era.... ?the "back then" you refer to, no? ?Which is the same period of time - the same setting -the same context to which Slash refers. ?The time when they were trying to work on the new album together. They both refer to this same event/situation. ?The comment slash made about his being stubborn are in the same literal text/context as his comments about Axl wanting to do 'techno or something'... ?So ?see, it is the same thing they were both talking about. ?They spoke about it to different people at different times, but they share their perspectives and feelings regarding a common situation. ?My noting the link between the comments, or connecting the dots if you will, was not taking anything out of context. ?;)

encountering people that express faith in Axl and loyalty to Axl has a negative effect on you?
You want to like Axl, but comments by people that express their love and support of Axl makes you not like Axl?

lol!
Perhaps you should in the future, anticipate that you will encounter such expressions at this - a GN'R fan fourm for the new band led by none other than Axl Rose!  :o

Whoa Eva, honestly I never intended to become so deep into this heated debate and I'm not gonna.....BUT being the stubborn bastard that I am, I am going to point out one more thing? before I dash away from this thread like the a thief in the night.....



For starters, it's A&M studios where they recorded the UYI albums.? ?;)

Secondly, I have heard this before and I always found this quote to be strange.? the Illusions albums were recorded at A&M studios.? But then Axl throws "Patience" in there at the end.? "Patience" (along with the rest of the LIES album) was recorded at Rumbo studios, not A&M studios.

So Axl seems a bit confused there with what he's talking about.? If he had done one of the ILLUSIONS songs after that rant, it would've been consistent, but it was odd that he threw "Patience" in there.  And you quoted Axl precisely, so we're not taking it out of context here, he claimed they had an argument at A&M studios about songs that Slash and Duff supposedly didn't want to do then says he was going to play one right then and it was "Patience".  Hmmm...

Also, I remember reading a statement from Slash (way back when, like 1991 or something) where he said he liked "Patience".? Maybe Duff didn't, I don't know.? And it's strange Axl got so upset about that song anyway since it was written primarily by Izzy.

And to follow suit, I will also get right to the point.

In your initial post, you described the comment by Mr. Weitzman crediting Axl as the catalyst behind the band's creative sucess as 'condescending'.
And then questioned whether Mr. Weitzman was relating this of his own opinion, or if he was actually passing on a dig by Axl to his former bandmates ... a dig that Axl might not have the balls to relate himself.)
 ?
I cited the above quote, along with others, to demonstrate all that Axl has actually had the bals to say himself. ?

I addressed your question about how I could consider there to be any difference between the statements released to the press by Mr. Weitzman and the allegations reported to be cited in Slash and Duff's lawsuit in this regard. ?

Those were the only points I was trying to get across.

My citing "K&M" instead of "A&M"in error, I'm sure you'll agree is irrelevant to that point.
As well as is Axls apparent lumping together different exchanges regarding the same topic in one rant.

I didn't address the questions raised in your post to 'debate' with you. ?You seemed to be really be considering different options and to be wondering about some issues... and I enjoyed sharing my impression and understanding with you... and obviously anyone else interested in the topic. ?;)

Cheers and goodnight. ?

now back on topic....?

Sp1at reports:? "Asked for his opinions on the case, Weitzman told us, "I am not certain as yet but I am hopeful this lawsuit will be dismissed by Slash and Duff against Axl."

Just a reminder to certain people, we still have rules.




/jarmo

Well i hit on AxlRossette too. Shes a looker and since Axl hasnt made a move...why not. Now back to the lawsuit: We still need to find out what happened to the money that D&S didnt yet receive. This is a federal lawsuit so they must have some reason to believe there is intent of fraud. Not saying Axl's guilty because that will be decided in court.

Booker will NEVER do this since he thinks slash is a saint and Axl is the anti christ. We have given him quotes in other threads about slash lying , changing his story and bad mouthing axl yet in every new thead he wants those same quotes over and over again. Its not even worth it since he claims to have such a short memory span and always wants the quotes. I really need to just put them all in one thread and ask a mod to make it a sticky.

Dude, how about maybe putting them in this thread?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=22251.0

I do believe the "clerical error" bit.

My thought had some parallels with yours when I first learnt of their complaint.
No one is such an idiot as to nick the money of the very opponent party in a pending lawsuit openly(yes wouldn't it be too obvious as if hes saying "please catch me redhanded! "?), lets alone "lawyer happy" Axl.
A trap? even if it was a trap, it'd be a lawyer's business. I can hardly imagine a man of brains, being "lawyer happy" n having the brains like Kobalt n Mr. Weitzman, would dare try his layman's tactics. And an expert would never take a risky course without confidence in their victory. So I thought it must have been either an error or a legal tactic.

Now it appears that it wasn't a trap that Axl's party set for the other party. On comparing those two statements from Mr, Weitzman, I sense the complaint took Axl's side unawares. 

Also I differ from you as to your second paragraph for the reason I posted earlier. Looking at it impartially, I must say the fanatic Axl-bashings verge on abnormality.

i agree man :yes: what's even worse or more pathetic is the lengths of these threads taking sides.. Who gives a flying fuck as long as whoever gets money owed to them..

What do you think brought all these people here? Certainly not the nu guns.

Axl brought all these people here, that is who.

gnr did, the guys from afd as a whole.. Please don't speak for everyone..

people need to stop acting like  a band is one person..

This is all bullsh|t.  The original band should do what's right and reunite.  Not sue screw and sue each other.  What a waste man.  Life is too short.  They need to stop acting like egop maniacs.  This stupid riff has gone on long enough.  It is childesh.  They should put that energy into making an new album consisting of the orignal 5 band members.  Not acting like a bunch whiney children.  Deep down, these band members must have SOME fond memories of each other.

Did I say the new guys did? We were talking about the popularity of Axl and Slash. I made the point that if the roles were reversed there wouldnt be the same intensity that is here today. Axl was the most popular guy in gnr. People like him and people hate him. He strikes a cord. Slash is a great guitarist and people love him because hes a "nice guy". Hes the guy who got paired with an asshole.

Yeah but What do you think keep people coming back here? Certainly not the old guys.

Ditto to your statement, mike. Certainly Many people just focus on a front man. and I guess you're one of them.

But it's certainly the present GN'R that brought me here.
Just the same I won't join a board about Led Zeppelin or Nirvana. besides I'm not a fan of solo acts.

So don't speak for everyone.

I'm here because I'm waiting for the new cd to come out.? I've been a Guns fan for as long as I've been listening to music and the thought of the original five getting together just doesn't appeal to me anymore.? I would be totally content just listening to VR and the new Guns N roses.? The original five would never get back together.? I personally would hate to see Steven Adler behind the drums for Guns N roses again.? Izzy would never come back.? So if Matt, Duff, Slash and Axl decided to get back and do a few shows, that would be great to see.? But a new cd out of those guys?? I hope not.? I am so excited for Chinese Democracy to come out someday.? Just because of the new musical direction Axl is trying to take this band in.? I like all the guys in the new band and I don't think Axl would just drop this whole project and get back together with the old guys.? This post is off topic but I just had to say my piece.? And don't get me wrong, I love Slash and Duff as much as anyone here, but we all just have to let go of the past.? The future is Chinese Democracy.? And it would take more than fond memories to get back together.? Think of a girlfriend or boyfriend that we have had for a long time and broke up with.? Of course we will always have great memories of the person, but it definitely doesn't mean thats enough to ever get back with the person.? People move on.? We still have AFD, Lies and the Illusions to remember the old band by.? If you need more go out and get a bunch of live bootlegs.

A question was asked and I answered. Axl is what brought most people? here. We are waiting on his album. The VR board are there because of slash and duff.

Also some of you claim this band is not guns  n roses, so guns n roses could not have brought some of us here. Again its because of Axl.

Its that simple.

it's not gnr to me.. Gnr brought me to this forum and others because I never had access to a pc when gnr was in their hayday.. I have an interest in what axl is doing but to me it's a solo project and that's how I feel.. I'm sure most people don't feel the new doors or queen is the band continuing... I support axl's work I loved every minute of gnr while it was here but I just don't see this as gnr anymore.. Band broke up and it ended years ago.. Maybe one day axl will let us peasants hear what he has been doing for about a decade

Well, that is one mans opinion and that is fine.  There is nothing wrong in believing something.  However, many bands in the past have lost members and gained new ones and still have the same name.  One that I can think of right off the bat is Little River Band.  Little River Band has had numerous people playing in that band.  If Chinese Democracy ever comes out and is a "big success", people will know Guns N Roses as "Guns N Roses".  And, they will have a brand new crop of followers since it has been so long, and I would bet that a lot of those fans wont even know Slash and Duff.  Now there are going to be people out there like you and I who will never forget the old GNR, but this "New GNR" will still be GNR.  And if Chineses Democracy is a success, Axl will be praised once again.     

Well said. The "new" GnR is GnR only by name, certainly not in any other way.  I love how people talk about being fans of the 'new' GnR or prefering them to the old. Huh?  There is only one GnR and it had Duff, Slash, Axl, and Matt/Steven in it.  The 'new' Gnr is like the old 'if a tree fell in the forest and no one was around, would it make a sound?' line.  The 'new' Gnr has yet to do anything. They don't exist, in reality.  They have no single, no video, no album, havent played a show in 3 years, and frankly, no one even knows who is in the band or if they'll ever release squat.  So how can anyone possibly call this a band.  This is Axl's project.  That's all.  Hell, none of the other members even know what's going on, judging by the quotes we get from Finck and co. 

I could give a rat's ass if they sue each other.  Just release some damn music and we'll all be happy. VR has done so. It's Rose's turn.  He has failed to deliver in more than a decade. 

You have a right to your opinion but stating that "there is only one gnr" as a fact just makes you look ridiculously biased. With a username GnRisSlash, why spend an entire paragraph explaining it?

GNR brought me here.  We are all curious to see if the new stuff stacks up with the old.  To me GNR will always have to atleast contain Slash, Axl, and Duff.  I saw nu GNR twice.  Both great shows.  Seen VR 3 times.  Great shows.  But, part of me just wants to come to this forum one day and read about Axl, Slash, and Duff talking and getting along for the first time in 9 years.  Maybe they could reunite via an act of God, like Katrina for instance.  GNR reunites in Baton Rouge to raise money for the flood victims......Brilliant!!

if all that happens no matter who their following is will check out the other albums from the band and see where they started from..  The little river band is no gnr nor did they have the success gnr had...Axl is definetly and amazing talented guy from my memory and always will be that way to me and we all hope to hear whatever he has one day. I have seen axl and his band live already and they did a really good job covering the old stuff, show was really good..  Just think about all the big bands you have loved and the members in the band then they all left for whatever reason as bands that break up do then continuing on with the name like it's really still that band..

There have been some great duos through music history, usually the axe man and the singer and those two imo need to be apart of the band to have it at least try and continue... Gnr was a great guitar rock band who always made solos a huge part of their songs... to lose the drummer, rythm guiat lead guitar and bass player and still call it gnr doesn't make sence to me since I watched them back then..

I like motley crue a lot, I just couldn't imagine nikki sixx tommy lee and mick mars leaving and vince neil alone calling it motley crue... Great bands should have some kind of mutual respect to where if they don't get along they at least resepct evetrything they did together and keep the name sacred..

LOL.  You have a great imagination.

No... the legalities of the situation are that Slash and Duff own the Guns N' Roses partnership (including song rights etc) and Axl owns the Guns N' Roses brand name.  No one should look past this.  It seems to me that Slash and Duff have been advised and ill informed.  I suspect that Axl's people also fucked up and basically this is a misunderstanding.  As we know, the money has been redistributed.

There isn't ever going to be a reunion so I'd say stop wishing for one.? But I do agree with one sentiment expressed by someone....

Slash, Axl, and Duff are in their 40s.? They aren't children anymore.? They need to establish some form of communication with each other so fuckups like this don't occur.? And Axl's lawyer is like "Well, why didn't they call Axl instead of suing?"? Give me a break, Mr. Lawyer Man.

Steven sent Axl a letter a few years ago and it was never answered.? Izzy drives by Axl's house every once in awhile and each time he is turned away at the gate.? So you think Axl would accept phone calls from Duff or Slash?? Sorry Lawyer dude, Axl is just as much at fault for the lack of communication as Duff or Slash.

Bottom line is that they will always be connected through GNR.? That's inevitable.? So even if they don't work together ever again, they need to communicate with one another like ADULTS, so that legal bullshit such as this can be avoided.



Actually I think GNRisSLash said it well.? You cant say there is another GNR until we have some solid product from the second one -- and that means something other than unfinished "new" songs on bootleg recordings.? Until then, he's right, there is only one GNR.

 Ozzycat, Look at the date of the post you picked out.


Well Actually, Mr. Weitzman says:

"If someone had taken the time to investigate or ask about this situation before rushing to judgment they would have learned that ASCAP (the entity that collects money for songwriters) made a clerical error and failed to appropriately divide and distribute the royalty's owed for the first quarter of 2005 to Axl and the former Guns N' Roses musicians. The amount ASCAP mistakenly sent to Axl's publisher was never received by Axl nor was he ever made aware of the error. The publisher alerted ASCAP to the error, returned the money immediately and asked ASCAP to remedy the situation by distributing the funds appropriately."

 "Rather than pick up the telephone and contact Axl or his representatives, his former partners scurried to file a lawsuit that contained false statements about Axl rather then making an effort to learn the truth regarding ASCAP's mistake."


That IS the existing GN'R. It must be 8yrs if a day since the last AFD guy left.

Representatives or not, he mentioned Axl separately and thus implied (on one hand) that they should've or could've called Axl.? If he had said "they should've called Axl's representatives", that implication wouldn't be there.



Right.? The original lineup.? Ask any music fan who GNR is and they'll tell you its the guys who gave us AFD and the UYI albums.? They are not going to rave about the guys who gave us Chinese Democracy because presently, there isn't any such album.? And as I said, bootleg songs don't count.



That's irrelevant.? In the eyes of the music world, GNR only exists as the original lineup, the one that actually gave us music to remember.? So as GNRisSLash said, the "new" GNR doesn't exist and won't exist until they release something.? Until then, they're a myth.

This made me giggle so I thought I'd share.? It's the last entry on the list.

Entertainment Weekly >> Issue #838/839 September 9, 2005

(http://gypsysoul.lunarpages.com/ew9905.jpg)

Never say never. Money talks and bullshit walks. Frank Black has pretty much admitted outright that the Pixies reunion was for money. His exact quote eludes me but it was something along the lines of 'this reunion was a chip we have been carrying in our back pockets for some time...' Given the right amount of time, and a big enough offer you will see the original GnR up there on a stage (only exception possibly being Izzy).

The point being that the Pixies broke up under a heavy amount of stress and in-fighting (much like a certain band we all know and love), and I don't know anyone that wasn't surprised when they announced thier reunion. And as an aside don't start in with the 'oh the pixies suck, they were never as big as Guns' crap. The Pixies were as influential on alternative rock as Guns were on rock/metal in their heyday.

You're right, in this case, the bullshit would walk.....right away from the money.? ?Axl, Slash, and Duff have all stated in interviews that GNR has been offered millions of dollars to regroup.  They've been receiving these offers ever since Slash and Duff departed the fold.  But all of them have said that if the band isn't on a mutual level of understanding, a reunion wouldn't mean shit to them.

And why should it?? They're all multi-millionaires, so it isn't like they're in financial trouble.  They have families, kids, houses.? They don't need the money.? At their age and state of their careers, their lives and families are more important to them than money.



And I read that Izzy has said he'll never play in a band with Axl ever again.? And "GNR minus Izzy" isn't GNR.? If any of the five originals are missing, it wouldn't be GNR.? Yeah, we've seen Slash and Izzy jam with Steven at Adler's Appetite gigs, we've seen Izzy jam with VR, but we ain't gonna see the five originals on the stage together again.  Even a one-off show would be highly unlikely.

I say just enjoy the old records and the 88 Ritz show, because GNR lives on in our memories and it's probably better that it stayed there.

Have they dropped the suit yet since they got their money?

I've yet to hear/read anything that said that they 'got their money'.

What I undersrood from Mr. Weitzman's statement(s) is that Axl's people had returned the money to ASCAP.

I'd have to assume that S&D's people would be following up on that...  but, there hasn't been an update or word from them since Mr. Weitzman's statements (or their's).

Eva, any word on why Axl didn't return the 1st quarter funds immediately upon receipt and if Slash and Duff will be eligible for any interest earned/damages due to the non timely delivery of their royalties?

Have we heard whether the checks weren't returned to ASCAP immediately yet?

I say the checks because the claim says the money went to both Kobalt and Black frog.
It doesn't say How much of that went to who.

And according to Mr. Weitzman's 2nd announcement, Axl didn't even know of the incident.
I guess the office people of the management and the publishing company are in charge of the accounts.

Falcon its most likely because he did not know. He said once he found out he returned it.? You really think Axl sees the checks that he gets for his royatlies? Of coarse he doesnt, he accountant does. Get a clue.

Also Slash and Duff just show how bitter they are by not dropping the suit. I really hope the courts fine them heavly for not dropping it and wasting the courts time and money.

ppebbe- In Axl, I should've stated Axl's financial people.  Someone has to be held responsible for the lack of timeliness of the royalty monies owed to the former members, not sure of the legalities of it all though. 

A safe bet would say the suit will not be dropped unless an amicable decision on court costs
and legal fees can be agreed on by both parties.  I'd say the chances of any compromise are slim and none..

If Duff and Slash dont drop this, it makes them look very bad. You ask what didnt Axls people return the money the minute they knew about it, well here is a question for you, what took Slash and Duffs lawyers so long to figure out the money was missing? Once they lawyer found out, he should have contacted Axls lawyers and fixed it but Slash and Duff are sue happy and just wanted another reason to sue Axl but in the end it makes Slash and duff look really bad for not trying to fix the problem before wasting the courts time.

Slash/Duff to Pursue Lawsuit Against Axl Rose
6 September 2005, 6:35 PM
 

Attorney, Glendon Miskel, has told Splat that Slash and Duff will be pursuing their new lawsuit against Axl Rose, despite the singer's recent response.

Miskel told us, "The money was returned to ASCAP. However, Axl has not withdrawn his claim that he has the right to control a portion of the songs which are registered to Guns N' Roses Music."

Axl's attorney, Howard Weitzman, had told us last week that he hoped the case would be dropped.

Sounds to me like the 2 court cases are more interlinked then I believed. It's good to see that the money was returned and Axl isn't trying to fuck them over too badly if at all.

Duff and Slash are low lifes,  I love how they claim that Axl tries to screw them out of money but not letting songs be used in movies yet slash and duff are trying to claim in this law suit Axl does not have any rights to the songs. They already have a lawsuit for that, why are they trying to tack that on to this too? If this suit gets dismissed if favor of Axl it would help his case in the other.

Nice post dave.

Btw, to all the "money talks" people, your just wishful thinkers. and as little as i want to see the old band get back together, it would revolt me even more if it was just for the money.

Sure enough!  >:( I guess this case brought Sn D's side no credit. Again, haste makes weste. :no:
Thanks gigger for the info.


Falcon - I see. :yes: I just wanted to make it clear for some reason.

About the amount, actually Mr Weitzman says they returned it immidiately.

"If someone had taken the time to investigate or ask about this situation before rushing to judgment they would have learned that ASCAP (the entity that collects money for songwriters) made a clerical error and failed to appropriately divide and distribute the royalty's owed for the first quarter of 2005 to Axl and the former Guns N' Roses musicians. The amount ASCAP mistakenly sent to Axl's publisher was never received by Axl nor was he ever made aware of the error. The publisher alerted ASCAP to the error, returned the money immediately and asked ASCAP to remedy the situation by distributing the funds appropriately."

That's it! The truth is and will be out. Go Mr. Waitzman! : ok:

Also the fact is Slash and Duff are too stupid to even realize they dont even need Axl to release songs. Wasnt the rule always that slash and axl have 50/50 say in the band and if they ever have a disagreement that duff was the tie breaker? I could have swore that is how it worked, unless Axl had veto power or something like that but if he did that would not make any sense. So does anyone rememeber this?

Does anyone know how soon the monies were sent back to ASCAP for redistribution?  Obviously not in a timely enough manner to prevent the lawsuit, or so it seems.

There's two scenarios, either Axl's financial people sat on the royalties or ASCAP failed to hand over the former members cash once it had been returned. 

Either way, I would bet if a settlement is not agreed, one of the 2 parties (Axl/ASCAP) will be paying Slash and Duff's legal fees and court costs, not to mention interest penalties on the royalties not received.

No they wont, if anything slash and duff will be paying the fees since they brought a case to court they did not have to be. Also it was paid back as no loss to slash or duff and yet they are still wasting their own legal fees. You really think a judge is going to give slash and duff legal fees on a case that they dont have to keep going on?  The settlement was reached, they got their money but they have not dropped the case. Like I keep sayign the court will frown upon this since they dont like their time  being wasted when it does not have to be.

Also I love how you keep doding my questions about slash, duff and their lawyer.

seriously man, you have no comprehension of the law. a settlement was NOT reached between the two parties. this isn't about the money now, it's about control of the music.

jesus, settle down and grow up.

Very true, not as of yet at least.?

The fact of the matter is Slash and Duff did not receive their royalties in a timely fashion and whomever is responsible for that is the party at fault and should be held accountable if a settlement is not reached.?

Flcon, Axl's lawyer said Axl didnt even recieve the money, the publishing company got the money and when they realised what happened they sent the money back right away. Axl didn't even know about this untill the lawsuit according to his lawyer.

Wrong you need to learn the law. This suit was because slash and duff claimed that Axl took all the royalty money. The first suit from earlier in the year was about the control of the music. Slash and Duff cannot sue axl in two different suits for the same thing.? This whole suit was because of royalties, it was a simple error and slash and duff got their money and the funds straighened out thus it was settled, but slash and duff are greedy and have not moved on thus are keeping the suit going.
Again axl sold his shares to sact not slash and duffs.

I assume that since Slash and Duff are claiming that Axl kept the money maliciously, that they are keeping the lawsuit so they can collect punitive damages...in other words, to punish him.

Yeah but since the company that did it and Axls lawyer said Axl didnt know then they have no leg to stand on. Axl did not even cash the check if I remember correctly. So what proof do Slash and Duff have? The minute Axl found out he returned it. This just proves how bitter slash and duff are.

Personally, I think Slash and Duff's lawyers are trying to find a way out of it gracefully, without looking too foolish.  Maybe they are going to wait until after the first lawsuit settles before moving on the second one.  Or they might still think they have a case.  They will just say that Axl did know what he was doing and only gave the money back because he got caught. 

And how is that possible since  ASCAP admited it was their error?

They did?  I must have missed that.  I know Axl's attorney said it was a clerical error, but I hadn't heard a statement from ASCAP saying that it was true. 

What would lead you to believe that?


I think you might be onto something there.



They definately seem to think they have a case, no matter whose fault it was the fact remains they didn't get their royalties on time and someone has to be accountable.? I'm very interested to see how long the funds were in Axl's financial handlers possession before they were sent back to ASCAP and why ASCAP hasn't issued a statement.? An educated guess would say ASCAP is keeping quiet to avoid any possible liabilities.

Or they are keeping quiet because they dont  know how greedy and sue happy slash and duff are and thought it was over when the fixed the error.

Human nature.  They issued a pretty forceful statement against Axl.  Now to have say "oops" and back down probably isn't something they want to do.

I doubt they'll back down, they may be trying to show a pattern of malicious behavior that could possibly help them on down the line in the other lawsuit as well.? The amount of time Axl's financial people had the check before remitting back to ASCAP will be very telling.

Just speculating of course..

i wouldn't be surprised if the second suit is dropped if S&D don't get a clear cut win in the first suit.

Dave, Slash and Duff "sue happy"? Thats fucking hilarious! What would you call Axl? He's lived inside of a lawsuit for the past 12 years.

Amen.

What they assert Axl to be guilty of in the statement is, so to speak, what they attempted to do on Axl in the other suit originally. Bloody hell.

THERE WAS NO LEGAL SETTLEMENT!

JESUS CHRIST...

Nope, nothing as of yet.

Still quite a few questions to be answered before this one goes away.

*shakes head*

the more I hear, the more I believe that S&D's continued legal action against Axl is just plain spiteful & malicious... 

the first suit challenges Axl's publishing rights....

this suit was supposed to be about royalties...  now, it's sole remaining purpose is to again, challenge Axl's pubishing rights.

*shrugs*

they just wanna keep the man bogged down in legal shit...

fuckers

Do you honestly believe their sole motivation is to keep him down?

well i think they want to suck him dry for everything they can, and they are just pissed off he wouldn't sign away for that black hawk down licensing.  but it could have just as easily been the other way around, axl wanted to use it, slash or duff didn't, and it wouldn't have been used.  how is he fucking them?  so yes, slash and duff are greedy, and yes they are bitter so they intend to keep him and the GNR name bogged down in court for as long as they can.

You guys are slightly off on this one. It is not just about the royalty payments. It looks/sounds like they are challenging Axl's publishing deal with Sanctuary-maybe songs were included that he did not have rights to. The first problem is we DON'T HAVE THE COMPLAINT! We don't know what the EXACT counts/allegations are. Second, we don't have the details/contract of Axl's publishing deal. We are basing our judgements off a newspaper article, a brief press release from Sanctuary on the publishing deal, and some flippant remarks by full of shit attorney's. I imagine it was too late to amend the complaint in the first suit to add these counts so they just filed another lawsuit. Basically, the first suit is about the partnership and seeing who controls it and the second suit is about the publishing. I personally doubt they will be dropping anything until ALL issues are resolved-in both suits. It really dumbfounds me that this thing can't be settled.  :rant:

All publicity is good publicity, for both sides  :D
Hopefully the guys can someday get into somekinda settlement and leave each others asses alone(or together  ;) )

madagas, Hey stranger!  :D Nice to hear your great comeback rant! You had a nice vacation?

That reminds me.

Attention plz? they changed their way of calling the opponent from the first(main) suit. Isn't it noteworthy?

In The first case:
                          "SAUL HUDSON ET. AL. VS. W. AXL ROSE"
Filing Date: 04/29/2004

Michael McKagan p/k/a DUFF an individual individually and on behalf of Guns N? Roses, a California General partnership
SAUL HUDSON p/k/a Slash    an individual
Plaintiffs

vs

W Axl Rose                            an individual and Does 1 through 40 inclusive
Defendants

***************************************************************
Case Type: Contract - Tortious Interference (General Jurisdiction)

Parties

DUFF - Pltf's AKA
HUDSON SAUL - Plaintiff
JOHNSON & MISKEL - Attorney for Plaintiff
KATTEN MUCHIN ZAVIS & ROSENMAN - Attorney for Plaintiff
MCKAGAN MICHAEL - Plaintiff

ROSE PROSKAUER - Unknown party type
ROSE PROSKAUER - Attorney for Defendant
ROSE W. AXL - Defendant

Parties BRAVADO INTERNATIONAL GROUP (Sanctuary)? Defendant (added  from July 12, 2005?)



In this case:
Filing date 17/ 08/2005

I came across this article regarding the sale of publishing rights and it sheds some light on what Axl and Sanctuary had to consider in regards to the publishing deal it made with Axl.

The Reason Clear Title Is Important

? ? ? ? This may seem self-evident but before you can sell something, you should own it.? Yet, many publishers may actually believe, quite innocently and in good faith, that they own rights which they do not own.? ?During the process of a sale, however, the buyer is likely do an intellectual property audit and if there is a gap in the ownership that shows up during that examination, that is going to come at a very inconvenient time for the parties, especially the seller.? If, at that time, the seller has to approach the creator of rights to seek an after-the-fact agreement because it turns out that the publisher does not actually own that which it believed it owned, the negotiating leverage is entirely within the realm of that creator and the seller may find that the deal then is much, MUCH more expensive to make.? Having been making deals for the entirety of my several decades long legal practice, I can say that once there are a few dollars on the table, making a deal is often very difficult indeed.? Any creator, knowing that the other party, the publisher in this instance, has to make a deal in order to complete the sale, will almost assuredly make requests in the negotiation that increase the cost to the publisher.? There is nothing wrong with that strategy.? It is called free-market capitalism and the publisher has only itself to blame for making itself vulnerable by not acquiring all the rights at a time when the negotiating tables might have been to its advantage.

? ? ? ? Further, as part of the deal, the publisher is very likely going to have to represent and warrant that it actually owns what it is selling, that there are no other parties that own rights to the IP assets and other forms of representations and warranties as to title and other elements.? The publisher will also likely have to indemnify the buyer against any breach of warranty as to any such claims and other of the publisher?s obligations.? Thus, if any part of the rights that are being sold are not in fact owned by the publisher, the publisher is likely to be in breach of the warranty, the indemnity is likely to commence right away and the publisher may then find that it has to spend many, many thousands of dollars in attorneys fees (the publisher?s as well as the buyer?s attorneys) and perhaps damages and costs to the seller and perhaps to the creator (and maybe even the creator?s attorney?s fees as well) rectifying the situation that could have been handled much less expensively had it been done right in the first instance.

? ? ? ? There may of course be other consequences to lacking a clean chain of title including but not limited to dealing with heirs of deceased creators (see discussion below) and other consequences.? But the point should be clear:? Taking care of legal obligations at the inception of the relationship between creator and publisher is the best way to make a problem not a problem.

? ? ? ? Help me is almost always cheaper than fix me.

source: http://www.ivanhoffman.com/selling.html

Slash and Duff are claiming that Axl sold publishing rights which he himself did not own - hence had no right to sell.
If we begin with the assumption/understanding that GN'R (as a partnership of Axl, Slash, and Duff) owns the publishing rights, Axl could not sell those rights wholly - however, as the partnership allows, he may sell his portion of those rights.? ?This is what Sanctuary announced took place.?
So seems Slash and Duff's are claiming, (as they claim in the original suit) that Axl does not have any publishing rights to GN'R songs, not even a portion.

I love Axl fans because I can relate to them even though I am not like them. I love Axl too.
But is it really worth playing a game of chess when all you gotta do is play battleship?

In other words, you take the side of our hero who has been trying to do much behind the scenes in the last 11 years (recruiting, losing members, firing producers, getting into lawsuits, playing mind games with himeslf before appearing 1 hour late to concerts) by doing exactly what he does with posts such as this.

All Slash and Duff said was that they didn't get their money. Now they get an avalanche of legal jargon from Axl lovers to prove that they are not only wrong, but malicious in intent to destroy Axl and his credibility with the GNR name. Its Axl who has done this by not putting out the record. You are all just frustrated (I am too). But that doesn't mean I go around bagging on ex-members whose contributious are parallel with Axls regarding the success of the GNR. Not only that, but they make music, and contribute to some great causes out there.

This lawsuit really doesn't fucking matter at this point anyways. Im looking forward to the next VR record, keep playing your chess games behind the rock star who is tended by his maid in his malibu mansion.

MNR

Well, mark, it is very possible that these suits have derailed plans for the album's release. Clearly there was an intent for some action in 2005, ask Mr. Merck about that, but lo and behold, two lawsuits later, we are hearing alot of backtracking.

It does matter. The game of battleship is an apt comparison. Two sides so angry with each other that they are willing to tear each other apart in court.

Eva is going a great job demonstrating the problems with the slash & Duff case not only in the suit against Axl and Kobalt but in the suit for control of the back catalog.

It boils down to this; Slash & Duff's accusations are betrayed by their own comments and behavior. In lieu of a contracted agreement, a judge will look to see if the letter of intent was accepted by both parties. If $ & D didn't treat axl like a resigned partner after this intent 'letter' was proffered then most likely the judge will be hardpressed to rule in their favor.

Mark, Axl did not file any lawsuits against S/D....he is simply defending himself...as he had to do when Seymour and Everly sued him. Axl usually isn't the one filing the lawsuits (only the greatest hits thing and Hollywood Rose thing where I believe he had a right to). Almost every time, someone is coming after him. That is something he does get a bad rap for. He is not suit happy like everyone thinks-at least to my knowledge he's not.? :(

I said Axl "gets into lawsuits". I didn't say that he files them.
Better that he not file any lawsuits since he doesn't balls to put out an original record of music in 14 years.

It really amazes me in the world of HTGTH how many Axl lovers are utterly convinced that Axl intended on putting out the record and that lawsuits or anything else that happens in our world or his world delay the record.
Show me a smidge of record promotion for the new record before statements like that are made.

MNR