'Sicko' Shows Michael Moore's Maturity as a Filmmaker

[sandman]

everyone wants a good healthcare system. i just don't see any evidence to support the idea that a government controlled system guarantees that, or is significantly better than what we have.

i think if a couple key improvements are made, our system would be one of the best in the world. and i believe those improvements are attainable. in fact, obama's plan hits them right on the head:

1. get everyone covered
2. reduce admin costs
3. focus more on preventative care

[freedom78]

everyone wants a good healthcare system. i just don't see any evidence to support the idea that a government controlled system guarantees that, or is significantly better than what we have.

i think if a couple key improvements are made, our system would be one of the best in the world. and i believe those improvements are attainable. in fact, obama's plan hits them right on the head:

1. get everyone covered
2. reduce admin costs
3. focus more on preventative care

I'd like to believe that, if insurance companies reduced administrative costs, it would translate into cheaper insurance.  But I get this feeling that some of it wouldn't be diverted in that direction. 

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

moore on CNN

Michael Moore Rips Wolf Blitzer on CNN: "Why Don't You Tell the American People the Truth"

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

everyone wants a good healthcare system. i just don't see any evidence to support the idea that a government controlled system guarantees that, or is significantly better than what we have.

i think if a couple key improvements are made, our system would be one of the best in the world. and i believe those improvements are attainable. in fact, obama's plan hits them right on the head:

1. get everyone covered
2. reduce admin costs
3. focus more on preventative care

you see, the government is not your enemy. It is just an organization. Just like coca cola, ibm or Humana.

Your plan sounds great. but it fails at step 1 for private companies.
The organisation called "the government" can be forced to do step 1.
Private companies can't, and if you force them with laws, you just make them work for the governement.

[SLCPUNK]

everyone wants a good healthcare system. i just don't see any evidence to support the idea that a government controlled system guarantees that, or is significantly better than what we have.

Canada is not good enough example 'eh? Canadians posting in this thread saying they get to a doctor without a hassle is not good enough? The fact that they are not turned down for payment of service by greedy HMOs isn't strong enough evidence?

The fact that everybody gets health care, is reason enough to show that system is better than ours.

1. get everyone covered
2. reduce admin costs
3. focus more on preventative care

You are leaving out the biggest problem: THEY DON'T PAY.

HMOs do everything to make sure they won't pay all of your claims and make it as difficult as possible to speak to a person to discuss your "claim" when it's time to pony up the money. "Everybody covered" by a bunch of snakes only means more people covered by a bunch of snakes that do everything in their power not to pay.

HMOs, PPOs and their ilk need to be destroyed, broken up, they are not here to help us, they are here to screw us, and take our money.

[sandman]

those HMOs are regulated by the government. and our government can't even do that right.

and i disagree with your canada comments. NO!! a couple canadians posting in these threads is NOT enough. are you serious??? i could post plenty of NEGATIVE aspects of canada's (and other nation's) systems, such as certain medical treatments getting cancelled due to financial issues. 

and if i'm covered but can't get quality medical treatment on a timely basis, am i really covered?

canada's system was ranked 30th. not significantly better than the U.S. and many of considerations were misleading.

and let me add #4 to my list....ending baseless lawsuits from trial lawyers.

[norway]

and if i'm covered but can't get quality medical treatment on a timely basis, am i really covered?

You get nessessesary treatment in time in my homeland, and you can use private sector which has short que's.

[GeorgeSteele]

and let me add #4 to my list....ending baseless lawsuits from trial lawyers.

There was a study done on that last year (I believe by Tom Baker, A UConn professor) that showed that the impact of supposedly frivolous lawsuits is grossly exaggerated.  Apparently, the cost of all medical malpractice lawsuits (including legal fees, insurance costs, and payouts) is less than one-half of 1 percent of all health-care spending.

[Lisa]

i'm not throwing the towel in on anything. i just need more details. how would it work? how much would it cost? would we be able to avoid the negative aspects plaguing other social systems? will there still be incentive for leading doctors and scientists to come to the U.S. to work? will there be incentive to maintain leading innovation? will services be rationed? who has final say when a "judgement call" regarding treatment is needed?

i can't give an opinion until i see something concrete.

everyone praises Canada's system, yet from what i understand, 30% of total health care dollars is spent on private health care. not to mention significantly higher taxes.
 
 

 ?

by private health care you must mean the frivilous plastic surgery industry? but even alot of that is paid for if you are referred by your doctor. I had breast reduction surgery done a few years ago because I told my doctor they were uncomfortable/back pain etc...it cost me nothing. I have to laugh everytime I see a comment referring to our health care system by someone who isn't Canadian. Although not perfect, you still know not of what you speak, it is easy to quote things you read but to know how it works, you have to LIVE here, you have to be a citizen of this fair country. As far as I am concerned, we are taxed accordingly and by our individual income. No one pays more for better care. Walk aa mile in the average Canadians' shoes before posting about our health care system. Myself, nor my family nor anyone I have ever come in contact with my entire life, has ever paid a cent for health care and have never been denied or had to wait for any kind of service. In fact, I booked an ultrasound today and she wanted me to come tomorrow but because of work commitments I couldn't do it, she asked what was good for me and told her next Wed would work great and my appointment is for 1pm on Wed as I specified. Small wait times occur with the demand of certain services and depending on the severity of the problem, you are booked accordingly.
If you haven't lived here and experienced how fucking good we actually have it then SHUT IT.
k, done ranting.

[fuckin crazy]

^You go girl.

Studies tend to indicate that overall dollars spent on healthcare would reduce if everyone was covered.

[freedom78]

by private health care you must mean the frivilous plastic surgery industry? but even alot of that is paid for if you are referred by your doctor. I had breast reduction surgery done a few years ago because I told my doctor they were uncomfortable/back pain etc...it cost me nothing. I have to laugh everytime I see a comment referring to our health care system by someone who isn't Canadian. Although not perfect, you still know not of what you speak, it is easy to quote things you read but to know how it works, you have to LIVE here, you have to be a citizen of this fair country. As far as I am concerned, we are taxed accordingly and by our individual income. No one pays more for better care. Walk aa mile in the average Canadians' shoes before posting about our health care system. Myself, nor my family nor anyone I have ever come in contact with my entire life, has ever paid a cent for health care and have never been denied or had to wait for any kind of service. In fact, I booked an ultrasound today and she wanted me to come tomorrow but because of work commitments I couldn't do it, she asked what was good for me and told her next Wed would work great and my appointment is for 1pm on Wed as I specified. Small wait times occur with the demand of certain services and depending on the severity of the problem, you are booked accordingly.
If you haven't lived here and experienced how fucking good we actually have it then SHUT IT.
k, done ranting.

Great post!  I think it's so easy to look at something and to use its exceptions, rather than its norms, to criticize it.  That seems to me to be what so many want to do with socialized medicine, in general, or the Canadian system, specifically.  It's similarly easy to look at something and focus on the problems, ignoring the whole while that it is, in fact, better than what you have, even WITH its flaws.  Improvement is improvement.  And this is a case where US federalism can really pay off.  The government could take the tax money, distribute it to states on a per capita basis, and really let them handle their own healthcare systems.  While 50 different systems may seem chaotic, it is also a great way to see what works best, and to hammer out a lot of flaws before settling on a national system (or, more likely, before states see what works better and make their own changes). 

[SLCPUNK]

by private health care you must mean the frivilous plastic surgery industry? but even alot of that is paid for if you are referred by your doctor. I had breast reduction surgery done a few years ago because I told my doctor they were uncomfortable/back pain etc...it cost me nothing. I have to laugh everytime I see a comment referring to our health care system by someone who isn't Canadian. Although not perfect, you still know not of what you speak, it is easy to quote things you read but to know how it works, you have to LIVE here, you have to be a citizen of this fair country. As far as I am concerned, we are taxed accordingly and by our individual income. No one pays more for better care. Walk aa mile in the average Canadians' shoes before posting about our health care system. Myself, nor my family nor anyone I have ever come in contact with my entire life, has ever paid a cent for health care and have never been denied or had to wait for any kind of service. In fact, I booked an ultrasound today and she wanted me to come tomorrow but because of work commitments I couldn't do it, she asked what was good for me and told her next Wed would work great and my appointment is for 1pm on Wed as I specified. Small wait times occur with the demand of certain services and depending on the severity of the problem, you are booked accordingly.
If you haven't lived here and experienced how fucking good we actually have it then SHUT IT.
k, done ranting.

I'll take yours over mine.

The time to see a primary doctor under and HMO is usually a month or more, I have found this to be pretty common. I remember asking if I could get in to see my primary within two weeks on my last call, and I literally got laughter on the other end.

I remember my lovely HMO in Utah. They refused 90 percent of the claims that came across their desk. I had to call them, sit on hold, get transferred around, always have to start my story over again, and finally after 45 minutes on the phone I could get it resolved. The next time maybe it wouldn't be that easy, maybe it would not be so difficult, but you could be rest assured there would be a next time. My HMO in Florida prior to that one, did the exact same thing.

I also remember my insurance out west refused to pay my multiple surgeries after I was already approved. When I fought them and won, they went back through my file and found medical info they claimed I withheld from them (which was not true.) The end result? They retroactively canceled my insurance back to day one, meaning I never had it, the result was that I would now be responsible for every doctor visit/surgery I had had over the entire year. The found a way not to pay for those surgeries. No lawyer would take my case, because they said it was a loser. Didn't matter if I was right, the insurance had too much money. I was told that they'd make me bleed money until I gave up. Then I'd have thousands in lawyer bills and thousands in medical. Nobody would/could help me. I was also told by a lawyer who specialized in fighting HMOs that he had seen this done to parents where the child had a serious condition such as cancer.

In the end, thousands upon thousands of dollars poured in which I was now responsible to pay. For the final kick in the balls the insurance refused to refund me my year of premiums. Their claim was that they used that money to pay down my bills from the doctors. To make it worse, when the bills came back to me, they were higher, because I was now uninsured. I had to either pay, or be ruined as far as my credit score went. So I paid the money. This was a normal day of business to these people, they didn't give a shit about me. I could easily see why the number one cause of bankruptcy in this country is from medical bills. People pay their insurance, and then their insurance fucks them.

The other thing I noticed, which pissed me off was that the insurance was in cahoots with big pharma. I was given a prescription by my doctor in Utah at the time. The insurance company wrote me a letter that said "We will not pay for that medicine, but we do pay for this medicine." I took it to my doctor and he said "It's not even the same thing, it has nothing to do with what I'm treating you for." Obviously the insurance co wanted me to take the drug that they were getting kickbacks from, regardless if it actually treated what ailed me. Tell me that is not insanity? When making profit and kickbacks trump health care something is wrong.

Now back in Florida. I have another PPO and it's the same thing. Every time I go to the doctor I get another note from the insurance company saying they don't pay for such and such. There is always money being billed to me after the visit and after I pay my co-pay (and my monthly payment to my insurance.) The latest one that came in cracked me up. While I'm covered for eye care, they are claiming the simple eye test (where you read the letters on the wall) was not covered under my plan. So I should expect a bill for 70 dollars for this in the next month. They won't pay for that? Are they kidding? The point is not if they will or will not. The point is that they refuse payment, and then make you fight to get it paid. I could call them and they'd say "Oh that was our fault, we'll reverse the charges." But the point is, that I have to get on the phone, explain what happened, and get worked, all over again. I have yet to see an HMO that did not have this MO.

Everybody I know has stories like these, and I was thrilled when Moore did this film. If Fox news gave it a great review, then you know these stories ring a bell with everybody no matter what side of the aisle you are on.

[freedom78]

The time to see a primary doctor under and HMO is usually a month or more, I have found this to be pretty common. I remember asking if I could get in to see my primary within two weeks on my last call, and I literally got laughter on the other end.

I remember my lovely HMO in Utah. They refused 90 percent of the claims that came across their desk. I had to call them, sit on hold, get transferred around, always have to start my story over again, and finally after 45 minutes on the phone I could get it resolved. The next time maybe it wouldn't be that easy, maybe it would not be so difficult, but you could be rest assured there would be a next time. My HMO in Florida prior to that one, did the exact same thing.

I also remember my insurance out west refused to pay my multiple surgeries after I was already approved. When I fought them and won, they went back through my file and found medical info they claimed I withheld from them (which was not true.) The end result? They retroactively canceled my insurance back to day one, meaning I never had it, the result was that I would now be responsible for every doctor visit/surgery I had had over the entire year. The found a way not to pay for those surgeries. No lawyer would take my case, because they said it was a loser. Didn't matter if I was right, the insurance had too much money. I was told that they'd make me bleed money until I gave up. Then I'd have thousands in lawyer bills and thousands in medical. Nobody would/could help me. I was also told by a lawyer who specialized in fighting HMOs that he had seen this done to parents where the child had a serious condition such as cancer.

In the end, thousands upon thousands of dollars poured in which I was now responsible to pay. For the final kick in the balls the insurance refused to refund me my year of premiums. Their claim was that they used that money to pay down my bills from the doctors. To make it worse, when the bills came back to me, they were higher, because I was now uninsured. I had to either pay, or be ruined as far as my credit score went. So I paid the money. This was a normal day of business to these people, they didn't give a shit about me. I could easily see why the number one cause of bankruptcy in this country is from medical bills. People pay their insurance, and then their insurance fucks them.

The other thing I noticed, which pissed me off was that the insurance was in cahoots with big pharma. I was given a prescription by my doctor in Utah at the time. The insurance company wrote me a letter that said "We will not pay for that medicine, but we do pay for this medicine." I took it to my doctor and he said "It's not even the same thing, it has nothing to do with what I'm treating you for." Obviously the insurance co wanted me to take the drug that they were getting kickbacks from, regardless if it actually treated what ailed me. Tell me that is not insanity? When making profit and kickbacks trump health care something is wrong.

Now back in Florida. I have another PPO and it's the same thing. Every time I go to the doctor I get another note from the insurance company saying they don't pay for such and such. There is always money being billed to me after the visit and after I pay my co-pay (and my monthly payment to my insurance.) The latest one that came in cracked me up. While I'm covered for eye care, they are claiming the simple eye test (where you read the letters on the wall) was not covered under my plan. So I should expect a bill for 70 dollars for this in the next month. They won't pay for that? Are they kidding? The point is not if they will or will not. The point is that they refuse payment, and then make you fight to get it paid. I could call them and they'd say "Oh that was our fault, we'll reverse the charges." But the point is, that I have to get on the phone, explain what happened, and get worked, all over again. I have yet to see an HMO that did not have this MO.

Everybody I know has stories like these, and I was thrilled when Moore did this film. If Fox news gave it a great review, then you know these stories ring a bell with everybody no matter what side of the aisle you are on.

I'm very glad I'm not with an HMO.  As a grad student, I'm on university student insurance (which is still not great, compared to the faculty insurance, which we SHOULD get since we teach half the fuckin' classes...), and since it's contracted out for a large group, rather than on a person by person basis, no one person is a high or low risk.  With 35,000 students, X number will break a leg, Y number will get pneumonia, Z will be in a car wreck.  So, I'm lucky in that respect, because I was under student insurance when I got cancer, just over three years ago.  They CAN'T drop me...thank God!  And my premium hasn't risen, because it's a set price for all members of the group.  Presumably, somewhere in that cold calculation, they counted on someone like me, and it's part of the cost, spread around to the entire group. 

I've had NO trouble with my insurance, doctors, or hospital.  None whatsoever. 

So, here's the problem.  I feel LUCKY!  I had cancer before the age of 30...yet I feel fuckin' lucky!  Why?  Because I DIDN'T get fucked over!  Because I beat the system, by a roll of the dice.  Now, granted, I've still had thousands of dollars in medical bills.  They pay 80, I pay 20.  But it's tens of thousands less than I would have paid, uninsured or with a company that dropped me (at worst) or raised my premiums (at best).  And it shouldn't feel that way.  My illness wasn't due to lifestyle or any choice I've made...it was just shitty luck.  And that kind of stuff happens to millions of people, who have a history of, say, heart disease...not because they're at McDonald's every day, but because it runs in the family.  It costs them thousands, destroys their chances of owning a home, sending their kids to college, and any number of other things.  And that's shitty.  Right now, greed is what America is about.  But I get the feeling that the tide is turning, for most people, away from a belief that you have complete control over your own existence to one where they realize that hard work is, sometimes, still not enough to get by, especially when you face a completely unexpected financial crisis.     

[SLCPUNK]

Right now, greed is what America is about.  But I get the feeling that the tide is turning, for most people, away from a belief that you have complete control over your own existence to one where they realize that hard work is, sometimes, still not enough to get by, especially when you face a completely unexpected financial crisis.     

I don't know if I could agree with that. America is an easy country to distract. Show 'em something shiny, Paris Hilton, and the missing white girl du jour and the marching in the streets will end as quickly as it began.

[freedom78]

Right now, greed is what America is about.  But I get the feeling that the tide is turning, for most people, away from a belief that you have complete control over your own existence to one where they realize that hard work is, sometimes, still not enough to get by, especially when you face a completely unexpected financial crisis.     

I don't know if I could agree with that. America is an easy country to distract. Show 'em something shiny, Paris Hilton, and the missing white girl du jour and the marching in the streets will end as quickly as it began.

Very easy to distract!  But I recall the revulsion with which the idea of socialized medicine was met under President Clinton.  These days there's some form of it as a campaign promise of every contender from one of the major parties.  We change slowly on these issues, but I do think the tide is shifting.  It might not come out of election 2008.  It may be 2016 or 2020...but I'd put money on SOMETHING within the foreseeable future.

[sandman]

?While the health care system in Canada covers basic services, including primary care physicians and hospitals, there are many services that are not covered. These include things like dental services, optometrists, and prescription medications.? http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/page4.html

"Public-sector spending on health care is expected to reach $104 billion this year (2006), while private-sector expenditures will reach an estimated $44 billion." (source: CIHI)


"The shortage of doctors and nurses in Canada: Some feel that Canada's health care system does not adequately compensate health care providers. This has led to a "brain drain" of Canadian doctors and nurses, which have left Canada to pursue careers in the United States. Attracting and keeping skilled medical workers is a priority if Canada is to be able to provide proper medical services."


the federal government in canada has established a $4.5 billion Wait Time Reduction Fund. i wonder why??? but at least there's been some improvements...

"Although provinces and territories report wait times in different ways, information shows median wait times for non-emergency care have clearly declined for some services. For example:

- In British Columbia, the wait time for cataract surgery has been reduced to 7.6 weeks from 9.9 weeks;
- In Ontario, the wait time for radiation for cancer care has been reduced to 4.4 weeks from 6.4 weeks;
- In Alberta, the wait time for hip replacement has been reduced to 12 weeks from 16 weeks and for knee replacement has dropped to 17 weeks from 22 weeks."


? ?

[SLCPUNK]

Wow this is absolutely horrible. People having to wait a little bit for free health care with no worry of financial ruin. Of course in America, waits for cataract, cancer, hip, and other various surgeries all happen the next day, there is no wait and the insurance always pays those claims.

I always thought Canadian meds were covered under their program (maybe somebody up north can confirm or deny this.) But even with insurance my meds are expensive. After my premiums I still pay 100 bucks a month for three simple meds. American meds are some of the most overpriced in the world, and I'm sure if the Canadians did have to pay out of pocket for theirs it would be cheaper than ours with insurance. How many Merikans crossing the border for their cheap prescription drug prices, hmmm?

I'd also like to see more direct links to those quotes so I can break them down more.

[AxlsMainMan]

Pretty much every union here in Canada provides dental services...

Hell, if you stack cans down at Loblaws, you get your dental services covered right there, plus lots of other goodies

As far as prescriptions go, Canada has drug plans on both the federal, and provincial level.

Most of my Grandparents are on the "Trillium" plan, which Im fairly certain is federal.

[SLCPUNK]

Pretty much every union here in Canada provides dental services...

Hell, if you stack cans down at Loblaws, you get your dental services covered right there, plus lots of other goodies

As far as prescriptions go, Canada has drug plans on both the federal, and provincial level.

Most of my Grandparents are on the "Trillium" plan, which Im fairly certain is federal.

That's what I thought.

So then what is this stuff Sandman is referencing?

[AxlsMainMan]

Pretty much every union here in Canada provides dental services...

Hell, if you stack cans down at Loblaws, you get your dental services covered right there, plus lots of other goodies

As far as prescriptions go, Canada has drug plans on both the federal, and provincial level.

Most of my Grandparents are on the "Trillium" plan, which Im fairly certain is federal.

That's what I thought.

So then what is this stuff Sandman is referencing?

Canada does have doctor shortages and wait time issues in certain areas, but no one said our system was flawless.

If I make an appointment to see the doctor at 1:30, I know I'll probably end up twiddling my thumbs in the waiting room for a solid 20 minutes...its just the way it goes