Fall to Pieces video now at Launch.com

[Naupis]

D-

Goto velvetrevolver.com and download it. It is an awesome video and you need to see it.

[Booker Floyd]

Obviously you missed the point. The groundbreaking comment was about how some of the 80s stuff were considered cool back then is lame now. Stuff that was groundbreaking/cool/new back then might not be today. Except for the people who still thinks it's 1987.?

Im sure theres only a relatively small number of people who find two girls kissing lame/uncool, especially when the scope of it is as small and trivial as the scene were discussing.  Girls Gone Wild and the Britney Spears/Madonna incident from only a year ago suggest this much.  Nobodys calling it groundbreaking or new...I honestly didnt even catch it on first viewing.  And when I did catch it, I thought nothing more of it then as the contrast to Scotts scene.  Its no secret thats pretty much Matts lifestyle, so I dont find it surprising, offensive or lame.

I do find it funny how some people say hard rock videos in the 1980s were bad when today's hip hop videos are worse.....

Ive never heard that?  Rap videos have recieved plenty of criticism for their misogyny, from all different groups and individuals.

By the way, wasn't this video supposed to have some kind of 1970s "theme" to it?

I believe so.  At least the Starwood scenes were supposed to. 

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Does anybody find it a bit funny that VR are now filming the kind of videos Axl wanted GN'R to make?
/jarmo

i'm gonna say it is the exactly opposite. VR is not doing any estranged/dontcry/nov.rain video.

and well, the video is cool, but not groundbreaking. i mean, its nouthin special. it is just cool.
we've seen tons of videos like that. a girlfriend of mine even thought of an alicia keys video when she saw VR's. the bad boy being locked awaya, using/selling drugs, the woman being sad ... then they all get together and it's fine.

yeah the more i analyze that video, the more dumb it seems to me.
its just well filmed, well cut. and thats it. it will be forgoten in a week.
VR still rock anyway

[jarmo]

Im sure theres only a relatively small number of people who find two girls kissing lame/uncool, especially when the scope of it is as small and trivial as the scene were discussing.?

Seems like I have to explain myself again. In regard to your talk about how GN'R videos were misogynist, I pointed out that some of the things that were "cool" in the 80s would be considered lame today. So, many of the 80s videos with lots of women dancing around in them could be considered lame today.

I wasn't talking about the VR video being lame or groundbreaking. All I said was, things change and just because GN'R did something 15 years ago that was cool then, might not be so cool today.

By the way, wasn't this video supposed to have some kind of 1970s "theme" to it?

I believe so.? At least the Starwood scenes were supposed to.?

Ok, so the next question is, is two women kissing a typical 70s thing? 




/jarmo

[Doc Emmett Brown]

regarding the matt/duff scene? i don't find it that interesting so i am not going to comment on it. if you think its interesting, why don't YOU share your opinions and theories.

Watch me emote like a chick flick:

I'm not sure what you mean here.? I found it erotic.? It obviously was just meant to be an affectionate scene between friends.? But the sight of those two lean, muscled torsos hanging on each other?? Is hot.? The difference is, it was unintentional and not being done under the watchful gaze of the opposite sex for approval.? ?

Thank you for discussing, Freya.? It makes sense to view the Matt/2-chicks scene in the context of the video.? There's a lot of contrasts depicted here.? ?I think the video is actually deeper than the song's lyrics which dont say much of anything.?

Other people have pointed out that the shallow cliched scenes with Matt are meant to contrast Scott's agony - in other words, the image of the stereotypical rock n' roll lifestyle vs. reality.?

I also would point out that the Matt scene shows hackneyed male titillation compared to a scene of non-sexual male affection between Duff and Scott.? ?If society is smugly comfortable with women doing things for the pleasure of men, it is equally uncomfortable with men expressing affection to each other.? The two are related, if you want equality, you need it on both ends.? ?That's why I find it interesting...

So, kudos to the video for highlighting all these different contrasts, even if the song's lyrics dont have the same level of expression.

Now that I have contributed something on-topic about the video, I can rant & rave like the rest of you:

You'll tolerate things that you consider are degrading to women because you like the music.? What does that say about you?

don't take advice about women from Eminem.?

My point was that he (ostensibly mysoginistic, regardless of his inner feelings) has a huge female fan base.? You take what you want from a person's music, but you have agreed to live in a man's world.? ?Badgirl disses Christina Aguilera which I find hysterical because X-tina, though she makes pop music, is considered a strong female.? There's very little unity among you.? How is anyone supposed to take feminist issues seriously when a large portion of females dont identify with feminism or show support for so-called liberated females?

[badgirl]

My point was that he (ostensibly mysoginistic, regardless of his inner feelings) has a huge female fan base.  You take what you want from a person's music, but you have agreed to live in a man's world.   Badgirl disses Christina Aguilera which I find hysterical because X-tina, though she makes pop music, is considered a strong female.  There's very little unity among you.  How is anyone supposed to take feminist issues seriously when a large portion of females dont identify with feminism or show support for so-called liberated females?

i didn't diss Christina. i dissed her music.  i like her. i think she is a ballsy chick, albeit perhaps one that tries a bit too hard. she's getting better though.
most women don't identity with feminist ideals (whatever those are) because most of us don't realize that women's representations are a problem that needs fixing. you live in a society for your entire life and are fed the same pop culture junk, you accept the images, they become normal to you, you don't question anything. besides, i don't think wanting equal rights/treatment etc. is conditional upon the agreement of the population in question- don't we all agree that men and women and everything else, everyone else should be treated fairly? (which, really, IS the feminist dogma, or should be- equality. period. but obviously it does get more confusing with the topics we are discussing like representations and ownership or sexuality, commodification of women's sexuality, etc..)) don't let a few confused and, perhaps, insecure girls (the kind who make out with their girlfriends for men, not for each other) dissuade you from "taking feminist issues seriously".

About your theory on the contrast of intimacies in the video. honestly, i think that was too deep for rock n roll. i am impressed that you picked it up, i don't think it was the intention. at all (especially to contrast it with the two girls in the way you explained it). i just don't think they meant it that way.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

About your theory on the contrast of intimacies in the video. honestly, i think that was too deep for rock n roll. i am impressed that you picked it up, i don't think it was the intention. at all (especially to contrast it with the two girls in the way you explained it). i just don't think they meant it that way.

I think you're right, it probably wasnt intended to mean that way.  I just thought I'd analyze the whole video due to the hoopla over a 1 second shot of a cliched lesbian scene. 

i don't think wanting equal rights/treatment etc. is conditional upon the agreement of the population in question

good point.  I hadnt thought of it that way.  But it still surprises me that so many women are fans of Eminem, and to some extent, Axl, but that's very off topic.

[badgirl]

i think about eminem's female fans this way (being one): if you are critical of him and what he's saying, you are not really a fan (because part of what makes him so amazing is exactly what he is saying and how he is saying it- his music is seeped in irony, i'm sure you know). if you are not critical of him and, like he pointed out, think he's "cute" then you don't get him.

kind of hard to win with him- you have to be really aware of him, his life (he exposes himself and his life in a way that is eerily similar to Axl. this kind of disclosure makes these guys infitinely more appealing and acceptable to me) the irony in his music to not be offended by the lyrics or to like him despite being offended, OR to like being offended.... most people miss out or simply don't care enough.

[Booker Floyd]

Seems like I have to explain myself again. In regard to your talk about how GN'R videos were misogynist

Theyre misogynist in badgirls rather stringent definition.  I wasnt personally complaining.

I pointed out that some of the things that were "cool" in the 80s would be considered lame today. So, many of the 80s videos with lots of women dancing around in them could be considered lame today.

Right, so somebody such as badgirl would probably find a lot of GNRs stuff lame, right?  Thats what I was originally asking her.

I wasn't talking about the VR video being lame or groundbreaking. All I said was, things change and just because GN'R did something 15 years ago that was cool then, might not be so cool today.

Understood. 

Ok, so the next question is, is two women kissing a typical 70s thing??

Couldnt exactly tell you...but at rock and roll haunts such as the Starwood, or even Studio 54, I imagine it wasnt completely unheard of.  Would you agree thats a good possibility?

[Freya]

You take what you want from a person's music, but you have agreed to live in a man's world.   

Hey, I didn't agree, that's just the way it is.

Badgirl disses Christina Aguilera which I find hysterical because X-tina, though she makes pop music, is considered a strong female.  There's very little unity among you.  How is anyone supposed to take feminist issues seriously when a large portion of females dont identify with feminism or show support for so-called liberated females?

Who considers Xtina a strong female?  I don't.  I find her an uneducated fool.  Very bad example.  I understand what you are trying to say though, but one half of the world is never going to be totally "united" in thought and action, women's experiences vary greatly.   The "groupie" stigma attached to rock/rap music doesn't help. 

Topic?  If Scott is clean now, why is he still so skinny in this video?  Eat some donuts. 


 

[badgirl]

Booker, i never defined misogny for you, and i never said Guns n Roses videos were misogynistic.

Freya- i think Scott is going for a certain aesthetic with his body. that whole skinny frontman, a la Bowie, Jagger, Tyler, etc... i don't particularly like it, but it is a look. 

[jarmo]

I pointed out that some of the things that were "cool" in the 80s would be considered lame today. So, many of the 80s videos with lots of women dancing around in them could be considered lame today.

Right, so somebody such as badgirl would probably find a lot of GNRs stuff lame, right?? Thats what I was originally asking her.

I'm not her spokesperson, but I personally can understand why some of those videos portrayed women the way they did.

It was a different period in time.

Couldnt exactly tell you...but at rock and roll haunts such as the Starwood, or even Studio 54, I imagine it wasnt completely unheard of.? Would you agree thats a good possibility?

I asked because I can't say I know.

But it seems to me like the thing has become "popular", with the whole Madonna/Britney thing and all....

So I thought they just put it in the video because everybody else seems to.



/jarmo

[badgirl]

i have seen it all now. just caught the video on tv.... they used fucking little people.  did they have a fucking checklist of every over trend?!

other than that (and i am really beginning to suspect they intentionally included those cliches), i think the video is going to catch on big time.

[Jizzo]

Actually it was one, and they really cut out his better parts of the scene

[Oddy]

what the hell is goin on? i use to use launch.com all the time and now it wont fucking work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to see this video! it's driving me crazy!

HAHAHAHHAHAHA D welcome to my world. I'm in the exact same boat. I even sent them a nasty email and tried to be the biggest jerk i possibly could. I'll see if i can find it. 

[Doc Emmett Brown]

Topic?? If Scott is clean now, why is he still so skinny in this video?? Eat some donuts.?

flippant, arent ya?? ? Axl should pass the donuts on to him.  I already stated my opinions about the video and Badgirl replied, so no need to repeat myself.? It's a pity there arent any midgets on HTGTH to complain about the use of midgets for titillation in our society.

You take what you want from a person's music, but you have agreed to live in a man's world.? ?

Hey, I didn't agree, that's just the way it is.

implicit agreement.

Who considers Xtina a strong female?? I don't.? I find her an uneducated fool.? Very bad example.? I understand what you are trying to say though, but one half of the world is never going to be totally "united" in thought and action, women's experiences vary greatly.? ?The "groupie" stigma attached to rock/rap music doesn't help.?

I referenced her because she was already mentioned in this thread.? Public perception of Xtina is that while she has terrible taste in clothes, she speaks for young women and does not portray the virgin/tramp aura a la Britney.? She may be uneducated, but she aint June Cleaver. 

"Bad example"?? Maybe for you. I dont know if you could find an example of a 'feminist' that all women would agree to admire.? Gloria Steinem perhaps?? Many women think she's completely wrong about gender differences or lack thereof.? I'm not asking for 100% unity from women on women's issues, but the divisiveness that exists now casts doubt on the relevance of feminism and an implicit agreement to live in a man's world.

[Freya]

Public perception of Xtina is that while she has terrible taste in clothes, she speaks for young women and does not portray the virgin/tramp aura a la Britney.

No, just straight tramp.  I don't know what public perception you are referring to, but just your belief that Xtina is some kind of young, feminist icon just shows how far apart your ideology is from mine. 

[badgirl]

Public perception of Xtina is that while she has terrible taste in clothes, she speaks for young women and does not portray the virgin/tramp aura a la Britney.

No, just straight tramp.? I don't know what public perception you are referring to, but just your belief that Xtina is some kind of young, feminist icon just shows how far apart your ideology is from mine.?

well, to speak the middle ground here. i think in certain ways, christina is carrying a little of the torch that Madonna abandoned sometime after she joined her cult, excuse me, kaballah. i respect that christina is a woman who is in touch with her sexuality. yes, she is selling it, but i feel its authentic rather than some forced identity. she is relatively literate and intelligent (given the collective IQ of her peers like JT and Britney whose IQs must add up to barely triple digits) and doesn't care all that much what people think about her.
i suppose the really sad thing is that anyone can respect christina based on her rather inadequate strengths... that right there shows you how many respectable women we have in popular culture today. 

[Dave_Rose]

yeah its a really good video

[Mattman]

Public perception of Xtina is that while she has terrible taste in clothes, she speaks for young women and does not portray the virgin/tramp aura a la Britney.

No, just straight tramp.? I don't know what public perception you are referring to, but just your belief that Xtina is some kind of young, feminist icon just shows how far apart your ideology is from mine.?

well, to speak the middle ground here. i think in certain ways, christina is carrying a little of the torch that Madonna abandoned sometime after she joined her cult, excuse me, kaballah. i respect that christina is a woman who is in touch with her sexuality. yes, she is selling it, but i feel its authentic rather than some forced identity. she is relatively literate and intelligent (given the collective IQ of her peers like JT and Britney whose IQs must add up to barely triple digits) and doesn't care all that much what people think about her.
i suppose the really sad thing is that anyone can respect christina based on her rather inadequate strengths... that right there shows you how many respectable women we have in popular culture today.?

It's an interesting question...who do you consider more of a liberated woman in music, Christina Aguilera or a rock chick like Janis Joplin?  Xtina expresses her "individuality" by dressing in whatever the hell she wants and freely expressing her sexual attitude, Janis did it by drinking, smoking, outgoing behaviour and basically doing things that society thinks is more of a thing that men do.  So how do you liberate yourself if you're a woman.....doing things that men usually do, or doing things that people say women shouldn't?