Somalia: another warfield for the US

[The Dog]

^^^Interesting.? Could this be the veil of anti-semitism slowly being pulled away?

Honestly, we're talking Somalia here!? How in the world could we not be able to come up with the money to pay off some locals ( a couple thousand dollars would be like millions to a Somali) to bring us the heads or locations of the heads we seek?? Generally, they are the ones speaking Arabic, come from other countries, and are setting up shop in the next town over looking like Velvet Revolver....(plenty of guns, but no roses.)? ??

Interesting op-ed in this weeks TIME about this kind of policy.  This is called the Nixon Doctrine.....pay/get other people to do your dirty work for you.  In all cases, it usually fails miserably in the long run.  Infact, the US was pretty happy Ethiopa just took out the islamists in mogadishu instead of us having to go in there.

Its a good read, worth checking out.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

1st i am not anti american / anti west / pro terrorist
thanks
that's what a guy like nesquick would say.

cause in the end. i am the one dating an american.

"Some of my best friends are American!"

    just kidding


But you do hate the Jews.  You haven't denied that in the past thats for sure.

what ??!!!!!!!
i hope you're kidding ....

[Izzy]

but for the purpose of this discussion, disregard Iraq from the equation.? As we've said before, 9-11, the embassy bombings, the US COLE all happened way before Iraq.? What was the US doing back then to give Al queda a generation of recruits?

I'm afraid i dont have the time to summarise 50 years of American involvement in the middle east

But to be blunt and to the point i'll answer with one word: Israel

America has been messing about with Israel for 60 years - thats what America has been doing ''back then''

I know its tempting to view history as what happened last week, but America has been meddling for decades and a response has been growing for over 30 years. We first saw this kind of extremism in the 70's and then bloody well gave them the damn weapons in the 80's (and remember America's funding to Iran and Iraq under Reagan?)

America supported Israel while the USSR supported any middle eastern country that opposed America and the two superpowers played a little game down there that caused havoc

There is far too much history involved for me to summarise for you, but i'm quite saddened if you dont know more about middle eastern politics and America's role. This whole mess didnt begin one day in September

[zman]

SO it is Our fault (The USA) for the problems in the middle east? Has the middle east not been at war for hundreds of years?

And what Reagan did in the 80's was remarkable.

[Prometheus]

but for the purpose of this discussion, disregard Iraq from the equation.? As we've said before, 9-11, the embassy bombings, the US COLE all happened way before Iraq.? What was the US doing back then to give Al queda a generation of recruits?

I'm afraid i dont have the time to summarise 50 years of American involvement in the middle east

But to be blunt and to the point i'll answer with one word: Israel

America has been messing about with Israel for 60 years - thats what America has been doing ''back then''

I know its tempting to view history as what happened last week, but America has been meddling for decades and a response has been growing for over 30 years. We first saw this kind of extremism in the 70's and then bloody well gave them the damn weapons in the 80's (and remember America's funding to Iran and Iraq under Reagan?)

America supported Israel while the USSR supported any middle eastern country that opposed America and the two superpowers played a little game down there that caused havoc

There is far too much history involved for me to summarise for you, but i'm quite saddened if you dont know more about middle eastern politics and America's role. This whole mess didnt begin one day in September

Izzy how about this. its simple. start refering to the west with half this shit and there will be les pissed of people. cause there has been more then just the US meeeing around with the mid east.

[GeorgeSteele]

From the Encyclopedia of American History:

Somalia, in northeastern Africa, attracted American attention for the first time in the 1970s when the military dictatorship of Mohammed Siad Barre solicited military aid from the Soviet Union. In 1980 he switched sides and allied with the United States, which also poured in military aid. As the Cold War ended, Somalia lost its attraction as an ally. Barre's ouster in 1991 allowed clan rivalries, which his dictatorial rule had held in check, to erupt into civil war. The war and severe drought destroyed Somalia's economy.

In response to televised scenes of starving children, the United Nations in December 1992 introduced troops from several nations, under the command of the United States, to see that international relief aid reached the Somalian people. This food mission initially succeeded, but when its commanders also tried to settle the civil war, troops were caught in a chaotic situation. Thirty U.S. soldiers lost their lives in the course of the conflict, the worst incident being an October 1993 army ranger raid in which eighteen U.S. soldiers were killed and their bodies paraded through the streets of Mogadishu, the capital city. After more than two years and $2 billion, the UN operation left Somalia with no government or administration and controlled by heavily armed rival clans.

[The Dog]

but for the purpose of this discussion, disregard Iraq from the equation.  As we've said before, 9-11, the embassy bombings, the US COLE all happened way before Iraq.  What was the US doing back then to give Al queda a generation of recruits?

I'm afraid i dont have the time to summarise 50 years of American involvement in the middle east

But to be blunt and to the point i'll answer with one word: Israel

America has been messing about with Israel for 60 years - thats what America has been doing ''back then''

I know its tempting to view history as what happened last week, but America has been meddling for decades and a response has been growing for over 30 years. We first saw this kind of extremism in the 70's and then bloody well gave them the damn weapons in the 80's (and remember America's funding to Iran and Iraq under Reagan?)

America supported Israel while the USSR supported any middle eastern country that opposed America and the two superpowers played a little game down there that caused havoc

There is far too much history involved for me to summarise for you, but i'm quite saddened if you dont know more about middle eastern politics and America's role. This whole mess didnt begin one day in September

Izzy how about this. its simple. start refering to the west with half this shit and there will be les pissed of people. cause there has been more then just the US meeeing around with the mid east.

agreed.  The Brits themselves are partly to blame for the unrest in the region.  Rather then deal with the problem they just dumped it off for someone else to worry about.

Izzy, i like to hear your POV, but your condescending attitude isn't winning points - no reason why we can't have a normal discussion right?

[SLCPUNK]

SO it is Our fault (The USA) for the problems in the middle east? Has the middle east not been at war for hundreds of years?

And what Reagan did in the 80's was remarkable.

The have hated one another for thousands of years you are correct, but we certainly contribute to the why they hate us. For instance we overthrew Iran's democratic government and installed a dictator. Iranians tended to be anti-American from that point on, who could blame them for that?

[Izzy]

SO it is Our fault (The USA) for the problems in the middle east?
 

For gods sake YES. Do i need a billboard?

Has the middle east not been at war for hundreds of years?

Please point to the part of the map that hasnt been fought over for centuries...

And what Reagan did in the 80's was remarkable.

Remarkably stupid.

Remind me again - why is it that Saddam had all those guns?

Who trained Bin Laden?

Who gave Afghanistan weapons and the skills to fight 'invaders?

Did someone say Iran-Contra too?

[Izzy]

agreed.? The Brits themselves are partly to blame for the unrest in the region.? Rather then deal with the problem they just dumped it off for someone else to worry about.

Izzy, i like to hear your POV, but your condescending attitude isn't winning points - no reason why we can't have a normal discussion right?

Ah blame the British!

So now you've gone from America doesnt deserve this to Britian's to blame too

Well DUH

The whole world is to blame and has contributed in some way

But when we balance all the rest of the world has done - and what America has done.......you see? Do i really need to continue?

I'm sorry for a patronising tone - but the points i'm making are fairly frakking obvious. A child's history book could tell you how America has damaged to region. Its not opinion its fact, and your unlikely to win my respect arguing against some fairly obvious comments

You asked my why these groups hated America before the Iraq war - i think i've shown why but i have one further point to make here

Think about your dog or cat. It gets atleast 2 meals a day - it gets its every need cared for, its rushed to the vet at the slighest sign of illness

The average western pet eats better and gets better health care than the poor sap in Somalia or Ethiopia etc etc

We give them NOTHING but grief - for every $ we (the people) spend on our pets, how much do we give to the poor of the world?

and you wonder why they hate us?!?

Izzy how about this. its simple. start refering to the west with half this shit and there will be les pissed of people. cause there has been more then just the US meeeing around with the mid east.

Why would i care if my points annoy those without knowledge of history?

I'd be surprised and worried if they were happy to be revealed as ignorant

From the Encyclopedia of American History:

Somalia, in northeastern Africa, attracted American attention for the first time in the 1970s when the military dictatorship of Mohammed Siad Barre solicited military aid from the Soviet Union. In 1980 he switched sides and allied with the United States, which also poured in military aid. As the Cold War ended, Somalia lost its attraction as an ally. Barre's ouster in 1991 allowed clan rivalries, which his dictatorial rule had held in check, to erupt into civil war. The war and severe drought destroyed Somalia's economy.

In response to televised scenes of starving children, the United Nations in December 1992 introduced troops from several nations, under the command of the United States, to see that international relief aid reached the Somalian people. This food mission initially succeeded, but when its commanders also tried to settle the civil war, troops were caught in a chaotic situation. Thirty U.S. soldiers lost their lives in the course of the conflict, the worst incident being an October 1993 army ranger raid in which eighteen U.S. soldiers were killed and their bodies paraded through the streets of Mogadishu, the capital city. After more than two years and $2 billion, the UN operation left Somalia with no government or administration and controlled by heavily armed rival clans.

oh thank god someone here has an idea of the situation.

Its truly staggering when the list of crimes the that have been committed against the middle east and africa.

[The Dog]

^^ it was always my understanding the warlords were not allowing the food/aid to be distributed the way it was intended and thousands of people were still starving.

[The Dog]

agreed.  The Brits themselves are partly to blame for the unrest in the region.  Rather then deal with the problem they just dumped it off for someone else to worry about.

Izzy, i like to hear your POV, but your condescending attitude isn't winning points - no reason why we can't have a normal discussion right?

Ah blame the British!

So now you've gone from America doesnt deserve this to Britian's to blame too

Well DUH

The whole world is to blame and has contributed in some way

But when we balance all the rest of the world has done - and what America has done.......you see? Do i really need to continue?

thats bullshit.  so now you're going to weigh rights and wrongs?  who has tried to settle the israel/palestine issue more in the past decade or two?   I don't see any other country trying to bring both sides to the table.  Obviously the US is not innocent in everything, but don't act like we're the only guilty ones, or, the MORE guilty ones. 

And no matter WHAT has transpired in the past, nothing justifies the terrorism of innocent people.  Nothing.

And you're saying America doesn't contribute $$/aid in times of crisis or just in general?  Or that its private citizens don't either!?!? 

give me a break dude.

[Prometheus]

oh izzy i hope your not saying that i have no knowledge of history. For that is how it reads. I will give you the benifit that you did not mean to emplie that I do not know.... until you clarify.

[The Dog]

Bad News for Izzy

Islamic hideout in Somalia said captured

By MOHAMED OLAD HASSAN, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 5 minutes ago

MOGADISHU, Somalia - Ethiopian-backed government forces captured the last remaining stronghold of the Islamic movement in southern Somalia, the Somali defense minister said Friday, hours after warlords met with the president and promised to enlist their militiamen in the army.

The southern town of Ras Kamboni fell after five days of heavy fighting, Defense Minister Col. Barre "Hirale" Aden Shire told The Associated Press. He said government troops backed by Ethiopian forces and MiG fighter jets chased fleeing Islamic fighters into nearby forests and the fighting would continue. He did not give casualty figures.

DAMN ETHIOPIANS!! They should have had tea and crumpets with the terrorists and talked about marshmallow skies and teddy bear smiles....

[pilferk]

agreed.? The Brits themselves are partly to blame for the unrest in the region.? Rather then deal with the problem they just dumped it off for someone else to worry about.

Izzy, i like to hear your POV, but your condescending attitude isn't winning points - no reason why we can't have a normal discussion right?

Ah blame the British!

So now you've gone from America doesnt deserve this to Britian's to blame too

Well DUH

The whole world is to blame and has contributed in some way

But when we balance all the rest of the world has done - and what America has done.......you see? Do i really need to continue?

thats bullshit.? so now you're going to weigh rights and wrongs?? who has tried to settle the israel/palestine issue more in the past decade or two?? ?I don't see any other country trying to bring both sides to the table.? Obviously the US is not innocent in everything, but don't act like we're the only guilty ones, or, the MORE guilty ones.?

And no matter WHAT has transpired in the past, nothing justifies the terrorism of innocent people.? Nothing.

And you're saying America doesn't contribute $$/aid in times of crisis or just in general?? Or that its private citizens don't either!?!??

give me a break dude.

See, that's the thing.

Everyone wants the US to butt out of world potlitics and events....to mind our "own business".

Right up until the shit hits the fan and they come screaming for our help.

We (the US) tried isolationist policies.? We got WWII...AND the cost of basically rebuilding the world (loans, FYI, we've never been repayed for....) afterwards.

The "world" can't have it both ways.? Either we're going to protect our interests in the world, be "involved" in the geopolitical schema, and help out when needed, or we're not.? ? ?And if we're not, we're NOT.? And no matter how much the rest of the world wants to bitch...they don't want that.? They can't afford it, actually. And we can't just run in like the cavalry...it gets too expensive and WE shouldn't have to bear the brunt of those costs.? Being proactive is less expensive, moneywise, resource wise, and especially "human life" wise.?

Pacifism doesn't work.? It's a great concept, but it's not practical.? Especially not when dealing with these types of extremists.? I've read Izzy's "solution" and that's where I abandoned this conversation.? It was a perfect display of where the "disconnect" is in this conversation....no more needed to be said.? He's talking from a position of idealism....and that's fine.? I don't disagree with his idealism in principle.? I just know it's not a practical solution when dealing with those who don't respond to such tactics....compromise, diplomacy, discussion....and who want nothing short of the destruction of your way of life.? There is no compromise.  There comes a point where "talking" becomes pointless, wasteful, and an advantage to the enemy....especially not without a threat of consequence.? And negotiating with those that support terrorists simply validates the tactic and makes us more susceptible to it, in the future, the next time somone is pissed off at us.? I mean..it will have worked before.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

it doesnt work now.
just like free market doesn't work. dont be blind.

it just would be nice to your kids in arkansas to tell them the truth: 3,000 marines is a good price for all that oil

[Axl4Prez2004]

agreed.? The Brits themselves are partly to blame for the unrest in the region.? Rather then deal with the problem they just dumped it off for someone else to worry about.

Izzy, i like to hear your POV, but your condescending attitude isn't winning points - no reason why we can't have a normal discussion right?

Ah blame the British!

So now you've gone from America doesnt deserve this to Britian's to blame too

Well DUH

The whole world is to blame and has contributed in some way

But when we balance all the rest of the world has done - and what America has done.......you see? Do i really need to continue?

thats bullshit.? so now you're going to weigh rights and wrongs?? who has tried to settle the israel/palestine issue more in the past decade or two?? ?I don't see any other country trying to bring both sides to the table.? Obviously the US is not innocent in everything, but don't act like we're the only guilty ones, or, the MORE guilty ones.?

And no matter WHAT has transpired in the past, nothing justifies the terrorism of innocent people.? Nothing.

And you're saying America doesn't contribute $$/aid in times of crisis or just in general?? Or that its private citizens don't either!?!??

give me a break dude.

See, that's the thing.

Everyone wants the US to butt out of world potlitics and events....to mind our "own business".

Right up until the shit hits the fan and they come screaming for our help.

We (the US) tried isolationist policies.? We got WWII...AND the cost of basically rebuilding the world (loans, FYI, we've never been repayed for....) afterwards.

The "world" can't have it both ways.? Either we're going to protect our interests in the world, be "involved" in the geopolitical schema, and help out when needed, or we're not.? ? ?And if we're not, we're NOT.? And no matter how much the rest of the world wants to bitch...they don't want that.? They can't afford it, actually. And we can't just run in like the cavalry...it gets too expensive and WE shouldn't have to bear the brunt of those costs.? Being proactive is less expensive, moneywise, resource wise, and especially "human life" wise.?

Pacifism doesn't work.? It's a great concept, but it's not practical.? Especially not when dealing with these types of extremists.? I've read Izzy's "solution" and that's where I abandoned this conversation.? It was a perfect display of where the "disconnect" is in this conversation....no more needed to be said.? He's talking from a position of idealism....and that's fine.? I don't disagree with his idealism in principle.? I just know it's not a practical solution when dealing with those who don't respond to such tactics....compromise, diplomacy, discussion....and who want nothing short of the destruction of your way of life.? There is no compromise.? There comes a point where "talking" becomes pointless, wasteful, and an advantage to the enemy....especially not without a threat of consequence.? And negotiating with those that support terrorists simply validates the tactic and makes us more susceptible to it, in the future, the next time somone is pissed off at us.? I mean..it will have worked before.

Pilferk is right. 

Watever-you-buggin, the free market doesn't work?  Huh?  Seriously, you don't believe in capitalism?  You crack me up.   

[TAP]

agreed.  The Brits themselves are partly to blame for the unrest in the region.  Rather then deal with the problem they just dumped it off for someone else to worry about.

Izzy, i like to hear your POV, but your condescending attitude isn't winning points - no reason why we can't have a normal discussion right?

Ah blame the British!

So now you've gone from America doesnt deserve this to Britian's to blame too

Well DUH

The whole world is to blame and has contributed in some way

But when we balance all the rest of the world has done - and what America has done.......you see? Do i really need to continue?

thats bullshit.  so now you're going to weigh rights and wrongs?  who has tried to settle the israel/palestine issue more in the past decade or two?   I don't see any other country trying to bring both sides to the table.  Obviously the US is not innocent in everything, but don't act like we're the only guilty ones, or, the MORE guilty ones. 

And no matter WHAT has transpired in the past, nothing justifies the terrorism of innocent people.  Nothing.

And you're saying America doesn't contribute $$/aid in times of crisis or just in general?  Or that its private citizens don't either!?!? 

give me a break dude.

See, that's the thing.

Everyone wants the US to butt out of world potlitics and events....to mind our "own business".

Right up until the shit hits the fan and they come screaming for our help.

We (the US) tried isolationist policies.  We got WWII...AND the cost of basically rebuilding the world (loans, FYI, we've never been repayed for....) afterwards.

The "world" can't have it both ways.  Either we're going to protect our interests in the world, be "involved" in the geopolitical schema, and help out when needed, or we're not.     And if we're not, we're NOT.  And no matter how much the rest of the world wants to bitch...they don't want that.  They can't afford it, actually. And we can't just run in like the cavalry...it gets too expensive and WE shouldn't have to bear the brunt of those costs.  Being proactive is less expensive, moneywise, resource wise, and especially "human life" wise. 

Pacifism doesn't work.  It's a great concept, but it's not practical.  Especially not when dealing with these types of extremists.  I've read Izzy's "solution" and that's where I abandoned this conversation.  It was a perfect display of where the "disconnect" is in this conversation....no more needed to be said.  He's talking from a position of idealism....and that's fine.  I don't disagree with his idealism in principle.  I just know it's not a practical solution when dealing with those who don't respond to such tactics....compromise, diplomacy, discussion....and who want nothing short of the destruction of your way of life.  There is no compromise.  There comes a point where "talking" becomes pointless, wasteful, and an advantage to the enemy....especially not without a threat of consequence.  And negotiating with those that support terrorists simply validates the tactic and makes us more susceptible to it, in the future, the next time somone is pissed off at us.  I mean..it will have worked before.

Pilferk is right. 

Watever-you-buggin, the free market doesn't work?  Huh?  Seriously, you don't believe in capitalism?  You crack me up.   

Yeah well, no one ever died a violent death in communist, fascist, feudalist, monarchist or theocratic systems.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Watever-you-buggin, the free market doesn't work?  Huh?  Seriously, you don't believe in capitalism?  You crack me up.   

oh no man, free market works so good  ! ... just turn on the tv: paris hilton, p. diddy - everything's rolling

tap1966 : you are confused. all the concepts you named (expect communism) do not refer that capitalism ( the way you handle the economy) but to political systems.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Watever-you-buggin, the free market doesn't work?? Huh?? Seriously, you don't believe in capitalism?? You crack me up.? ?

oh no man, free market works so good? ! ... just turn on the tv: paris hilton, p. diddy - everything's rolling

That just shows you everyone has the freedom to be as morally vacant and talentless as they wish to be!  Big deal!  The debate over capitalism ended a long time ago.  It's without a doubt the best system in the world...but like any system requires occassional checks and balances.  We might want to return to the Somalia talk in this thread.  We're getting off-topic.  Is Somalia really another battlefield for the US?  Nah.  Like what was said before, it doesn't matter where Al-Qaeda goes...precision missile strikes and special-ops forces won't be far behind.  If they are in my backyard I'm in mortal danger...that's just a reminder to anyone in the world:  know thy neighbor.  If you have any inkling your neighbor is a radical Muslim...report them.  It's that simple.  (to be politically correct, I'll throw in this one too...if your neighbor is a radical Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist  , report their asses)