2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Doesn't matter.  He still tested positive.

Well yeah i was just not sure if he was aware or not. I didn't know if the 2003 survey test results were told to the players who tested positive.

Regardless of what they say, players know what they are putting into their bodies.

[tim_m]

Doesn't matter.  He still tested positive.

Well yeah i was just not sure if he was aware or not. I didn't know if the 2003 survey test results were told to the players who tested positive.

Regardless of what they say, players know what they are putting into their bodies.

Agreed completely. I don't believe any player is that naive.

[Bodhi]

I must be the only one who doesnt think what A-rod did is a big deal...here is a newsflash...there are TONS of people who do steroids that do not even play professional sports!!  No exaggeration, I know about 20 people that do steroids or have done them.....and those are people I know personally!  If I want to count all the people I know from the gym who do them the number is about 50...and thats off the top of my head!!! Some of you need to wake up and realize that doing steroids is not that big a deal...do you get on peoples cases for smoking pot?  Essentially its the same thing,both are illegal drugs except if done PROPERLY steriods are not as harmful for you as you would think..

as far as baseball players stats being tainted or not counting etc....its all bullshit...So many players have done steroids, it is obvious that it is rampant in todays game...It is just the way it is...pitchers and hitters were both doing it...and ill tell you another thing, if steriods were around in the same capacity back when Ruth and Mantle were playing they would have all been doing them too....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

You sound like you dabble in a little HGH and/or testosterone.

[pilferk]

Let me start by saying.....if he's guilty, he deserves whatever crucifixion he gets.

But I'm not quite so quick to assume he is.  There's SO many factors here that I need more info.  I'll agree...it LOOKS bad.  And I'm not going to assume he's innocent either...but nor will I assume he's guilty quite yet.  There are some things to keep in mind, here:

First up, back in 2003 when the test was administered, the tests were not nearly as good as they are, today.  As late as 2005, single sample tests had somewhere between a 5% and 7% error rate.  Unless I'm mistaken, this WAS a single sample "survey" test...which mean of the 1100 players who took the test, you can assume somewhere between 55 and 77 would come up positive in error.  Now, the players had no problem with that because the results were SUPPOSED to be sealed, the tests anonymous, AND the specific tests and results were supposed to be destroyed.  From a players perspective, if a test comes up false positive...no harm, no foul.  It was just MLB trying to see if they got MORE than the 5% "error rate" in positive tests.    But statistically speaking.....when you have 104 players test positive...that means about 50% of your positives may have been in error, just based on the known rate of error.   Sure, compelling evidence you need to address a problem (since you were DOUBLE the expected error rate).  But Not exactly what I'd want to bank something on from an individual player perspective..but that's just me.

The two mentioned steroids?  Also 2 of the most common "false positives" for a variety of reasons.  Here's just ONE of the citations talking about ONE of the issues:

AT Kieman et al., "Effect on Sports Drug Tests of Ingesting Meat from Steroid (Methenolone)-Treated Livestock," Clinical Chemistry 40 (1994): 2084?2087.

I know, it sounds somewhat silly.  But when there is an error rate out there, and there ARE things that can cause false positives....AND there's no second sample to test.....the "proof" isn't nearly compelling enough for me to call the guy guilty, YET.

Second, both steroids that show up in A-rods system are also of the oral type (thus, "A-Fraud's dirty steroid syringe" might want to change his name to "A-Fraud's drity little pill"...it's probably more likely he ingested them in that form, in any case).  While I think it's unlikely, it is at least a bit more plausible that he could have been given them without his knowing.  So don't poo poo that notion completely......unlikely, yes but not impossible.

There's also a variety of other issues, here, that irk me.  None of them really have to do with Arod's guilt or innocence, but with the leaks themselves, the time SINCE the positive tests (and Arod's apparent clean tests in the interim), the nature of leaking what were supposed to be confidential test results (whether Arod is on the list or not, I'd be ticked), etc.

The whole story sorta bugs me, actually.

[GypsySoul]

ESPN is taping an interview with A-Rod to be aired later tonight.  It's being reported that he admits to using.

[freedom78]

ESPN is taping an interview with A-Rod to be aired later tonight.  It's being reported that he admits to using.

Smart move.  We're forgiving people, usually...unless you lie forever and ever like Barry, in which case we tend to despise you.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

When he said, "talk to the union" that was his way of admitting guilt.

The denial continues with pilferk. 

[Mal Brossard]

You sound like you dabble in a little HGH and/or testosterone.

I did HGH and Steroids to get my post total at HTGTH higher.

It didn't work, and my nuts are the size of raisins.

[Mal Brossard]

and ill tell you another thing, if steriods were around in the same capacity back when Ruth and Mantle were playing they would have all been doing them too....

Steroids were legal to obtain in the US until the 1980's.  So even if Ruth, Mantle. Mays, Aaron, et. al. had used them, they were legal at the time both under the laws of the country and the laws of the league.  It was until the 1988 banning that made them illegal in the US, and by proxy, MLB.

[pilferk]

When he said, "talk to the union" that was his way of admitting guilt.

The denial continues with pilferk. 

You have a REAL reading comprehension problem, eh?

Read what I wrote.  Read it again.  Read it ONE more time.

For example, right in the first paragraph:

But I'm not quite so quick to assume he is.  There's SO many factors here that I need more info.  I'll agree...it LOOKS bad.  And I'm not going to assume he's innocent either...but nor will I assume he's guilty quite yet.  There are some things to keep in mind, here:

So..where exactly is the denial???

I was actually practicing the OPPOSITE of denial.  It's called "informed decision making".  You might wanna try it some time....along with a bit of objectivity.  It's quite refreshing.

My point was (and still is):  I wasn't going to condemn the guy until a bit more came out, since the article in question was pretty short on detaiils. I'd hold the same opinion no matter who it was, and no matter who they played for.  Because eventually someone MIGHT get caught in this firestorm who really IS innocent....

Now, we know. And I stand by what I said:  He deserves every bit of crucifixion he gets.

[Axl4Prez2004]

You guys want to know what really pisses me off about this...and I haven't heard anybody else mention this yet, but I'm sure it will be mentioned as this will be the biggest news story for the next several months (unless the full list of names comes out as Schilling has recommended-and I agree)...Where was good person Alex Rodriguez when Jason Giambi was getting his ass raked over the coals?  How 'bout Pettite?  He didn't say one fucking thing.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...MLB is a terrible organization.  They've succeeded in ruining a game I love, baseball.
Yeah, I blame the players too...but like Axl says in IRS, MLB, "should have seen it coming all along..."  the steroid bullshit put asses in the seats.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

bullshit.  Fuck you Alex Rodriguez.  Fuck you other 100+ players.  Fuck you MLB. 
Somebody mentioned it earlier, Jose Canseco deserves some apologies. 

[faldor]

I watched the A-Rod interview and part of me actually felt sorry for the guy at times, it's sad really.  No one can be trusted anymore.  He actually admitted to more than he was accused of, at least so far.  The report over the weekend was that he tested positive in 2003, but he admitted to using from 01-03.  He said he never used before then and hasn't since, but who knows really?  He also said he didn't know for sure what substances he used.  Give me a break Alex!  I find it hard to believe that a world class athlete is gonna put something in his body that he doesn't know what it is or what it can do.  He said he felt extreme pressure to live up to the huge contract he signed in Texas, so he took whatever he took.  I believe him there, and I guess it's sort of admirable in a way to want to do all that you can to live up to such a ridiculous contract.  But the pressure only built when he took center stage for the Yankees, and it's gonna increase tenfold next season when all eyes are on him.  He's brought this all on himself.  He's never been thought to be one of the most grounded and strong willed players.  He takes criticism harder than the average player, much different than a Manny Ramirez per se.  We'll see how he reacts next season when he goes through a slump and people start to wonder how much the steroids helped him along the way.  Giambi faced that very thing. 

And he went off on the SI reporter, making many accusations against her, which she denied them all emphatically.  Now I know reporters can be jackasses so I'm not sure who to side with on this one.  Someone's lying though.  Yet another black eye for the game of baseball.  They turned their backs for a long time while getting fans back interested in the game.  Now they're paying the price.

[tim_m]

I watched the A-Rod interview and part of me actually felt sorry for the guy at times, it's sad really.  No one can be trusted anymore.  He actually admitted to more than he was accused of, at least so far.  The report over the weekend was that he tested positive in 2003, but he admitted to using from 01-03.  He said he never used before then and hasn't since, but who knows really?  He also said he didn't know for sure what substances he used.  Give me a break Alex!  I find it hard to believe that a world class athlete is gonna put something in his body that he doesn't know what it is or what it can do.  He said he felt extreme pressure to live up to the huge contract he signed in Texas, so he took whatever he took.  I believe him there, and I guess it's sort of admirable in a way to want to do all that you can to live up to such a ridiculous contract.  But the pressure only built when he took center stage for the Yankees, and it's gonna increase tenfold next season when all eyes are on him.  He's brought this all on himself.  He's never been thought to be one of the most grounded and strong willed players.  He takes criticism harder than the average player, much different than a Manny Ramirez per se.  We'll see how he reacts next season when he goes through a slump and people start to wonder how much the steroids helped him along the way.  Giambi faced that very thing. 

And he went off on the SI reporter, making many accusations against her, which she denied them all emphatically.  Now I know reporters can be jackasses so I'm not sure who to side with on this one.  Someone's lying though.  Yet another black eye for the game of baseball.  They turned their backs for a long time while getting fans back interested in the game.  Now they're paying the price.

OMG! stop the presses faldor actually admits to feeling a little sorry for A-Rod!

[freedom78]

I think MLB should institute the following:

You can use steroids.  Everyone is tested.

But if you do use them (as proven by the tests) you have to use a decorative mini-bat when hitting. 



If, in the event that you are an AL pitcher (and,thus, too big of a puss to hit), you should have to throw a giant inflatable baseball.



If you're a pinch runner, you should wear these.



I also propose instituting a new mascot:

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

When he said, "talk to the union" that was his way of admitting guilt.

The denial continues with pilferk. 

You have a REAL reading comprehension problem, eh?

Read what I wrote.  Read it again.  Read it ONE more time.

For example, right in the first paragraph:

But I'm not quite so quick to assume he is.  There's SO many factors here that I need more info.  I'll agree...it LOOKS bad.  And I'm not going to assume he's innocent either...but nor will I assume he's guilty quite yet.  There are some things to keep in mind, here:

So..where exactly is the denial???

I was actually practicing the OPPOSITE of denial.  It's called "informed decision making".  You might wanna try it some time....along with a bit of objectivity.  It's quite refreshing.

My point was (and still is):  I wasn't going to condemn the guy until a bit more came out, since the article in question was pretty short on detaiils. I'd hold the same opinion no matter who it was, and no matter who they played for.  Because eventually someone MIGHT get caught in this firestorm who really IS innocent....

Now, we know. And I stand by what I said:  He deserves every bit of crucifixion he gets.

You threw in one line about him maybe being guilty, then you proceeded to write a whole composition of how the testing system is flawed.  You're going to tell me you're objective?

Please, don't answer that.

Pills, patches, or creams, the syringe stays.

[Bodhi]

You sound like you dabble in a little HGH and/or testosterone.

no I havent...but I don't see anything wrong with it.  I would not rule out trying it out in the future either.  People are blowing this way out of porportion.  I would have been more upset if he got busted with coccaine or pot, because there is NO good that can come out of either of those, and that would do nothing but hurt his performance.  At leat the guy was trying to be a better ball player.  Remember, these guys are being paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a child's game....I think you are taking things like home run records and the history of the "game" a little too seriously....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

You sound like you dabble in a little HGH and/or testosterone.

no I havent...but I don't see anything wrong with it.  I would not rule out trying it out in the future either.  People are blowing this way out of porportion.  I would have been more upset if he got busted with coccaine or pot, because there is NO good that can come out of either of those, and that would do nothing but hurt his performance.  At leat the guy was trying to be a better ball player.  Remember, these guys are being paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a child's game....I think you are taking things like home run records and the history of the "game" a little too seriously....

Ahh, I see what you mean.  When you get older and can't keep up with your workout....and then things start to sag.  Not a pretty picture.

Cheating is cheating.  Nothing cool about that.  If the guys you see in black and white films weren't on steroids, why should records nowadays be taken seriously?"

Imagine if some 'roided up fool breaks Stockton's assists record, would you be neutral with that?

[Bodhi]

You sound like you dabble in a little HGH and/or testosterone.

no I havent...but I don't see anything wrong with it.  I would not rule out trying it out in the future either.  People are blowing this way out of porportion.  I would have been more upset if he got busted with coccaine or pot, because there is NO good that can come out of either of those, and that would do nothing but hurt his performance.  At leat the guy was trying to be a better ball player.  Remember, these guys are being paid MILLIONS of dollars to play a child's game....I think you are taking things like home run records and the history of the "game" a little too seriously....

Ahh, I see what you mean.  When you get older and can't keep up with your workout....and then things start to sag.  Not a pretty picture.

Cheating is cheating.  Nothing cool about that.  If the guys you see in black and white films weren't on steroids, why should records nowadays be taken seriously?"

Imagine if some 'roided up fool breaks Stockton's assists record, would you be neutral with that?

haha exactly, in about 13 or 15 years when I hit my 40's I might need to resort to steroids, but till then Im all set...

good point about someone breaking Stocktons assist record, If that happened I wouldnt care...because they cheated...Just like if you ask me who the all-time home run leaders are, I would say Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth...I don't recognize what Barry Bonds did, and lets be honest, even though the statbook might, nobody else really recognizes what he did either...when Bonds became the all time home run leader, nobody gave a shit...I actually just had to think for a second to remember if he even broke that record, Nobody takes anything this guy did seriously...same thing with Mark McGuire, and unfortunately soon to be A-Rod as well... It would be one thing if these guys were getting recognized for their "accomplishments" but they arent....if anything they are making the old time players look even better

[D]

Ive always hated A Rod but to be honest, after that interview, I kind of like the guy now.

I can totally understand where he is coming from. When guys like McGwire, Bonds and Sosa amongst others are roided and out hitting and out performing u, it makes your contract look even worse.

So, I can see where he almost felt pressured to keep up.


I personally don't get as upset with guys like A Rod and Bonds using Roids, cause they were HOF'ers without the shit.

I have problems with guys who are scrubs, Sammy Sosa, Brady Anderson etc etc who go from shit to superstar. 

ARod will hit u 40 and drive in 130 while hitting 315 clean

So what if he goes up to 50, 150 and 330?

Its a jump but not like going from a 200 hitter to hitting 280 with 60 plus HR's.