Students banned from Graduation because of the Confederate Flag

[Axl4Prez2004]

Are you misunderstanding me? For the last year I've been talking about nothing but evil white men who control the world.

I said, "You of all people should know it's the ultra-rich who control the economy."  So you know I give you props on that!

btw, I didn't ask Joe Q. White Guy to apologize personally for shit.  Our government owes the apology...not only for slavery but for Jim Crow and the fucked-up policies beyond Jim Crow.

we do have a disagreement when it comes to "special protection."  Yes, minorities do require special protection when it's clear as the sky is blue there are on-going inequities in hiring, renting, lending, criminal justice arenas, etc., etc. 

the attitude of the school system is to provide a safe environment which fosters academic growth.  a kid in the inner-city should be receiving just as good an education as the kid in the wealthy 'burbs.  Call me crazy, but I believe in equal opportunity. 

[D]

I cant argue with the stiffer penalties because Id have to see factual numbers that says that it is so. maybe its a state to state thing?

Its not like most people in prison black or white dont deserve to be there.

I just have a different way of  thinking than most of u on here.

Blacks sold blacks.

They came to the USA and were slaves which was horrible but ask yourself, would u rather be in the United States in the year 2008 or over in a Civil War, Genocidal, Aids infested, starving Africa?

The Confederate Flag wasnt intended for a racist symbol. just because the KKK and other ignorant orgs adopted it, doesnt mean that was what it was intended for.

The South were tired of unfair taxes and the political dominance of the Northern states. So they broke away. they adopted their own flag that had nothing to do with anti black. It was just their countries flag. they were for slavery but the flag wasnt intended as a symbol for that. It was just a new country's flag.

I look at jewish People and I look at black people. both historically have had it damn rough. One group band together and rose above, the other cops out and allows the attrocities of a yesterday hold them back today. Using things your ancestors went through as a crutch isnt going to get anything done.  Gangs, rap music, the way blacks look down on successful blacks. a lot of times they create their own hell.

[Axl4Prez2004]

D, maybe you'll read this and consider my points...maybe not.  You'd have to agree we are shaped by the environments we grow up around...

I cant argue with the stiffer penalties because Id have to see factual numbers that says that it is so. maybe its a state to state thing?

It's true.  I'll round that up for you if it would make a difference...but would it even make a difference?

Its not like most people in prison black or white dont deserve to be there.

I agree with you on this statement, but it doesn't negate the facts there are serious inequities in our "justice" system.

I just have a different way of  thinking than most of u on here.

Blacks sold blacks.

What are you saying here?  Are you seriously placing blame on Africans for the institution of slavery?  Africans were complicit with Europeans and partially to blame? 

They came to the USA and were slaves which was horrible but ask yourself, would u rather be in the United States in the year 2008 or over in a Civil War, Genocidal, Aids infested, starving Africa?

D, do you know why the African continent is the way it is today?  Have you studied what the European colonial powers, and later, the U.S. did to Africa??  (oh, there Axl4Prez goes again blaming others for the problems of a people  ), but seriously, that continent got fucked by colonialism.  Also, when you say they "came" to America, correct that.  They were "brought" to America against their will, never to know freedom again, and lived every day of their lives knowing their children and their children's children would never know freedom.  Generation after generation after generation...until "freedom" comes but was it freedom?  No.  Jim Crow's segregation, horrific institutional racism created the perfect storm to create the situation we see today in many African-American communities across the country.  The next time you shake your head at the fuck-ups of color...put yourself in their shoes for a second.  Their mom may be on drugs, their dad in prison.  Can a person be a success rising up out of that shit?  yes!  Is it likely?  No!      

The Confederate Flag wasnt intended for a racist symbol. just because the KKK and other ignorant orgs adopted it, doesnt mean that was what it was intended for.

D, we agree on that point but that doesn't negate the fact that is what it represents today!  The Swastika is an ancient Indian symbol, but do you think they are going to be using that symbol prominently today?  No!  Why?  Because most aren't instigating a-holes like these 3 attention-seeking punk kids.

The South were tired of unfair taxes and the political dominance of the Northern states. So they broke away. they adopted their own flag that had nothing to do with anti black. It was just their countries flag. they were for slavery but the flag wasnt intended as a symbol for that. It was just a new country's flag.

Listen, if the Warren Jeffs wacko cult had a particular flag they flew, do ya think people might say that's a flag of a group that represents underage marriage/pedophilia?  Probably.  

I look at jewish People and I look at black people. both historically have had it damn rough. One group band together and rose above, the other cops out and allows the attrocities of a yesterday hold them back today. Using things your ancestors went through as a crutch isnt going to get anything done.  Gangs, rap music, the way blacks look down on successful blacks. a lot of times they create their own hell.

yes, sometimes they do, many times they don't. (create their own hell).  There are shitty whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc.  What harm is a formal apology for slavery, segregation, and institutional racism going to cause???  You never answered that question.  Does it trouble you to recognize more blacks than whites start off life with a disadvantage? 

D, I know you aren't a racist.  Please don't think I'm implying that.  I do think you are influenced by your environment, as we all are.  All I ask is that you look at these issues with an open mind.
  That said, I will agree with you that some of the Great Society policies have unwittingly resulted in a group of folks at the bottom with less drive.  Social welfare systems need to be a safety net, not a place to rest.  How do we get there?  Tough question, but if we meet somewhere in the middle, I'm sure we'll make progress. 

[fuckin crazy]

That flag represents hate and nothing more.

Bullshit, it represents The right of man, the abolition of tyranny(want to ague?), mans right to decide his own destiny(not the destiny of some fucking tyrant in Washington), and Constitutional freedom.

Without debating the illegal, immoral, and and unjust war that that those fascists(radical Republicans) brought to the American people read the "Articles", and the Constitution.

 ... and quiet frankly, I take offence at the suggestion that my relations fought for anything other than noble causes.

[D]

AXL4PREZ

I dont disagree with anything u stated. Im not trying to pretend that the white person is innocent and has no hand in holding down other races.


BUT I think these days, black people have an equal share in holding themselves down and l don't see anyone forcing them to take any personal responsibility. Your son deals drugs cause his mom dealt drugs and his dad is who knows where.......

thats the white man's fault how?

I just dont understand that is all I am saying.  U mean to tell me something that happened a century ago has this much influence still?

i just dont think so.

I think people, as long as there are schools, have just a good a chance as the next of getting out and doing something with their lives.

This is the part I am talking about:
I know people in my small ass shitty town that would feel "unblack" or less a "black Person" if they made great grades, joined the band, were in academic clubs etc. they were ridiculed, bullied and put down by other black people who were "Ghetto" and cool and Gangsta and hard. 

Its like the black kids who wanted to do good were surrounded by so much negativity from their own peers, they would end up doing bad to "fit In"

that is in no way a white person's fault.

[JimBobTTD]

Axl4Prez2004 - you need to have another look at your history books. Slaves were captured in raids by other blacks, then transported to the coastal regions by blacks, and sold at market by blacks. They were then transported to ships run by whites, and taken over the Atlantic. Most were bought by Portuguese and taken to Brazil, while we're on the subject. There had been a thriving slave trade, with slaves taken from Africa to Islamic countries, for about a thousand years before the Transatlantic slave trade began and, of course, many Africans had slaves themselves. Slavery was not new in Africa when the white man came to a few coastal areas to collect slaves. The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period.

If you want to check it yourself, there is a very nice chapter on this in McKay et al's A History of World Societies.

Slavery is an unpleasant aspect of history, but the fact that it has been abolished (although it still occurs in some places, albeit under a different guise) says a lot about our social development.

[fuckin crazy]

Axl4Prez2004 - you need to have another look at your history books. Slaves were captured in raids by other blacks, then transported to the coastal regions by blacks, and sold at market by blacks. They were then transported to ships run by whites, and taken over the Atlantic. Most were bought by Portuguese and taken to Brazil,

 ... and the vast majority were sold in NYC

[fuckin crazy]

For those that think the South was some kind of evil empire, I have to ask the question, when did NY, or England for that matter, make the trafficking in slaves illegal?

[fuckin crazy]

I find it telling that no one has defended the tyrant Lincoln.

[JimBobTTD]

Britain banned the trafficking of slaves in 1807, with the ban coming into effect the following year. Slavery itself was abolished in 1833.

Don't know off the top of my head about US slavery.

[fuckin crazy]

For some reason 1836 comes to mind, but might be mistaken.


 ... and even if it is mistaken, the money whores in NYC, and Washington made their money until the 13th Amendment was ratified, and then the Carpet Baggers preyed on the South(fucking scum).

[SLCPUNK]

Axl4Prez2004 - you need to have another look at your history books. Slaves were captured in raids by other blacks, then transported to the coastal regions by blacks, and sold at market by blacks. They were then transported to ships run by whites, and taken over the Atlantic. Most were bought by Portuguese and taken to Brazil, while we're on the subject. There had been a thriving slave trade, with slaves taken from Africa to Islamic countries, for about a thousand years before the Transatlantic slave trade began and, of course, many Africans had slaves themselves. Slavery was not new in Africa when the white man came to a few coastal areas to collect slaves. The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period.

If you want to check it yourself, there is a very nice chapter on this in McKay et al's A History of World Societies.

Slavery is an unpleasant aspect of history, but the fact that it has been abolished (although it still occurs in some places, albeit under a different guise) says a lot about our social development.

I never understood why people bring this up. It's totally irrelevant.

It in no way erases what we did, nor does it minimize it.

[JimBobTTD]

Axl4Prez2004 - you need to have another look at your history books. Slaves were captured in raids by other blacks, then transported to the coastal regions by blacks, and sold at market by blacks. They were then transported to ships run by whites, and taken over the Atlantic. Most were bought by Portuguese and taken to Brazil, while we're on the subject. There had been a thriving slave trade, with slaves taken from Africa to Islamic countries, for about a thousand years before the Transatlantic slave trade began and, of course, many Africans had slaves themselves. Slavery was not new in Africa when the white man came to a few coastal areas to collect slaves. The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period.

If you want to check it yourself, there is a very nice chapter on this in McKay et al's A History of World Societies.

Slavery is an unpleasant aspect of history, but the fact that it has been abolished (although it still occurs in some places, albeit under a different guise) says a lot about our social development.

I never understood why people bring this up. It's totally irrelevant.

It in no way erases what we did, nor does it minimize it.

It was to respond to this:

Blacks sold blacks.

What are you saying here?  Are you seriously placing blame on Africans for the institution of slavery?  Africans were complicit with Europeans and partially to blame? 
 

just to make sure that we all understand that it wasn't white men invading Africa, stealing people and selling them into slavery.

It in no way erases what we did, nor does it minimize it.

What we did? We? I never did anything.

[fuckin crazy]

The vast majority of southern whites did not own slaves. 90% of the slaves were owned by 5% of the population.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Axl4Prez2004 - you need to have another look at your history books. Slaves were captured in raids by other blacks, then transported to the coastal regions by blacks, and sold at market by blacks. They were then transported to ships run by whites, and taken over the Atlantic. Most were bought by Portuguese and taken to Brazil, while we're on the subject. There had been a thriving slave trade, with slaves taken from Africa to Islamic countries, for about a thousand years before the Transatlantic slave trade began and, of course, many Africans had slaves themselves. Slavery was not new in Africa when the white man came to a few coastal areas to collect slaves. The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period.

If you want to check it yourself, there is a very nice chapter on this in McKay et al's A History of World Societies.

Slavery is an unpleasant aspect of history, but the fact that it has been abolished (although it still occurs in some places, albeit under a different guise) says a lot about our social development.

JimbobTTD, thanks for the head's up...I've got plenty o' books myself.    I did have to point out this little diddy of yours is 100% Grade A bullshit..."The slave trade, scholars agree, had actually very little impact on Africa, with about 10 million taken over the Atlantic over a 450 year period."

Blaming Africans for the slave trade would be akin to blaming the southeast asians for its rampant child exploitation.  "We wouldn't have had sex with their kids if their parents didn't bring them to us!"  Yes, nobody's going to debate with you the fact there were middlemen that assisted in the gathering of slaves...but honestly, what choice did these people have?  You make it sound like peace-loving Europeans showed up on the shores of Africa and found stores selling slaves, "Get your slaves here!  Get your black, strong slaves here!" like they were at a baseball game or something selling peanuts and ice cold beer. 

Then to boot, Europeans carved up Africa, raped it for its resources, and arbitrarily divided it into nations that never had a chance to succeed. 


btw, Colonel Mosby, to think that "tyrant" Abraham Lincoln forced the South to end slavery, what a monster!  To think he did everything within his means to keep this nation unified...what a horrible guy. 

"The vast majority of southern whites did not own slaves. 90% of the slaves were owned by 5% of the population."
-0% of whites were owned by blacks.    Keep flying those stars and bars proudly Colonel! 

[JimBobTTD]

Not blaming Africans for the slave trade. Just pointing out that a fair deal of blood is on their hands too. There was a demand, and certain entrepreneurs dealt with supply. These entrepreneurs were black Africans.

And no, it's not bullshit. The overall effects of the transatlantic slave trade on Africa were minimal. The bit about scholars agreeing is a pretty much direct quote from that McKay book, which is seen as being so good that it is even used outside the US in universities...like the one I attended to get...oh dear!...my history degree!!!

[Axl4Prez2004]

AXL4PREZ

I dont disagree with anything u stated. Im not trying to pretend that the white person is innocent and has no hand in holding down other races.


BUT I think these days, black people have an equal share in holding themselves down and l don't see anyone forcing them to take any personal responsibility. Your son deals drugs cause his mom dealt drugs and his dad is who knows where.......

thats the white man's fault how?

I just dont understand that is all I am saying.  U mean to tell me something that happened a century ago has this much influence still?

i just dont think so.

I think people, as long as there are schools, have just a good a chance as the next of getting out and doing something with their lives.

This is the part I am talking about:
I know people in my small ass shitty town that would feel "unblack" or less a "black Person" if they made great grades, joined the band, were in academic clubs etc. they were ridiculed, bullied and put down by other black people who were "Ghetto" and cool and Gangsta and hard. 

Its like the black kids who wanted to do good were surrounded by so much negativity from their own peers, they would end up doing bad to "fit In"

that is in no way a white person's fault.

D, we agree more than we disagree.  If I were in charge, the scum of the scum, black, white, purple, and green, all of 'em would be doing hard time.  I'd go balls-out on all these clowns.  Violent criminals would never be heard from again, period.
Children would not be allowed to conceive children in my society, sorry, call me a tyrant all ya want, it aint fair to the child of the child.  
I really believe technology will solve a lot of this crap in the future.  Conception of humans is not "God-guided" it is like everything, people-guided.  People are either responsible or irresponsible.  ...how the heck did I get here from the Confederate flag?  sorry.  
long story short, I too have seen the bad-ass black crap first-hand.  There is a self-defeating component at work in many black communities.  We just have to remember to get just as pissed when we see the assholes on the other side.  Get pissed when the black dudes are using the n-word...I do.  Get even more pissed when you see a-holes leaving nooses in black co-worker's cubicles.  Get more pissed when you see the poor conditions of inner-city schools.  Get more pissed when you see the absence of after-school programs in the worst areas...some will tell you, "why should my tax money go to areas where people don't work?"  I'll tell you why, you have a choice.  We can either put the money into prisons and rehab clinics, or we can save money by dealing with the problems before they get out of hand.  

PS  Jimbobttd, yes, we both have degrees.  Wonderful.  We also have a disagreement here...just sayin'.  Instead of "bullshit," I should have said I respectfully disagree.  For that I apologize.    Those "entrepreneurs" you speak of were staring down the barrels of guns and cannons, weapons those folks did not have yet. 

[Perfect Criminal]

Are you misunderstanding me? For the last year I've been talking about nothing but evil white men who control the world.

I said, "You of all people should know it's the ultra-rich who control the economy."  So you know I give you props on that!

btw, I didn't ask Joe Q. White Guy to apologize personally for shit.  Our government owes the apology...not only for slavery but for Jim Crow and the fucked-up policies beyond Jim Crow.

we do have a disagreement when it comes to "special protection."  Yes, minorities do require special protection when it's clear as the sky is blue there are on-going inequities in hiring, renting, lending, criminal justice arenas, etc., etc. 

the attitude of the school system is to provide a safe environment which fosters academic growth.  a kid in the inner-city should be receiving just as good an education as the kid in the wealthy 'burbs.  Call me crazy, but I believe in equal opportunity. 

It sucks what happened to blacks in this Country.  But who cares about an apology.  I'm sure they want to see progress toward equality more than get a stupid apology.  And to that end the USA is succeeding rapidly.  The progress on this issue in the last 40 years alone has been incredible.  At that same rate, I bet we'd be beyond all this in another 40 years.  Accentuate the positive dude. 

I issue my apology to all black right here and right now.  I am sorry that your ancestors had to endure slavery and a slew of other misjustices.  Moving on to continued progress.

[Gunsnroses-now]

I disagree with their bringing the flag to school, but if they complied with the teachers who told them to remove them, then I can't justify barring them from graduation. It seems to harsh for an unintentional breaking of a rule that they quickly righted once they could.

I don't like seeing that flag. It represents a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I prefer nationalism to sectionalism anyways, and adding that the flag can be seen as hateful, what's the point? Free expression is fine, but why would you display something that others will find so offensive? It's not like protesting with controversial images, where you're hoping something will get done...

On the Civil War debate in here, the South lost the spirit of the Constitution and the all-important American tradition of compromise. The idea that you can't always have what you want, because others deserve a voice too. The South wanted the whole country devoted to its needs - the 3/5 Compromise is a prime example - either slaves are property and they don't affect representation in Congress and you pay taxes on them, or they're people and you can't own them. It can't be both ways. And it got worse with fucking Calhoun and his nullification shit. If Lincoln's elected, as he was, it's because the American people chose him. It wasn't a fraudulent election, it was who most people wanted for President. You can't throw a hissy-fit and storm out of the Union every time you lose. Especially considering the Supreme Court and the Senate were balanced, even slanted to the South in the case of the Court.

[SLCPUNK]

What we did? We? I never did anything.

"We" as a country. Let's not play disingenuous here please.