Guns N Roses Achieve Test of Time?

[madagas]

Nice posts Mattman and Falcon. All the good points have been made. However, Mattman, I think Radiohead filled the alternative gap in 1998 after the end of grunge (Soundgarden breaking up and Layne and Kurt dying). OK Computer spawned a million Radiohead lites but that phase is gone and NOW we are left waiting on the new messiah. I would like the new Gnr to fill that gap but as always, it is going to take a young hungry band of upstarts to truly shake things up. From what Tommy is saying, Axl's album may be too complex and "mature" for a teen audience to grasp, just my opinion. 

[Neemo]

I don't really think Guns have acheived the test of time, not like the beatles and zepplin anyway, first of all they only have 4 records!! then they imploded. It remains to be seen if Axl can stand the test of time. In time he may reach the level of Ozzy, then, like Black Sabbath, Guns will be remembered because it was Axl's first shot at fame, that's why I have always thought Axl should drop the G'n'R name.

As far as Nirvana is concerned, they did start a movement, Mother love bone sucked!! Nirvana sparked the interest and Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Screaming Trees, Sonic Youth, AIC, STP etc. etc. started getting contracts.  Whether or not Nirvana came up with the idea first is irrelevant the were recognized first, and as I recall no-one saw that change coming, from my perspective I identified with the grunge type of music more than the overblown Hair Metal (And Yes they Fucking Were HAIR MEtal!!! Look at some old pics if you doubt me), mind you I still love that type of music to this day, G'n'R included, they just were way to large to identify with any longer.  I don't think though that Nirvana started the one hit wonder thing (Cause they had alot more than One fucking hit!!!) That came later with bands like Live, The Breeders, Meat Puppets, etc. etc. coupled with the easy to duplicate sound of Green Day. I'm not saying Either that grunge is not easy to duplicate, but those bands had an aura or charisma about them that was specific to a couple of years and no-one has duplicated it since.

With Nirvana (or other Grunge Bands) not producing something like Estranged or November Rain, of course they didn't, it was everything they were against, grunge was always 3-4 guys with a raw sound of playing instruments and singing in a generic sort of way, gone were the days of high pitched screams, horn & string sections, and synth.

[matt88]

"Bigger" and "more influential" are 2 different things.

"Better", though arguable, is subjective.

Keep in mind, I'm not lessening the greatness of AFD, that's just crazy talk.

"Nevermind" is just thought of in entirely different light and has been since it broke, that fact will never change.? It is absolutely the most important record since "Never Mind The Bollocks".?

Flannel became a fashion statement, biker shorts didn't.

That says it all....

Haha...down here in australia, flannel was bigger in the 80's...flannel actually was part of the culture, never was inlfuenced by anyone. Grunge was an American thing. Same as Punk was English. Kurt and Nirvana were just media heroes. They always compared them to Guns N' Roses because Guns N' Roses were the Kings of music. Metallica were second but were never glorified by the media. They stayed with their underground tag. Pearl Jam were third. If ask most people their was more of an anti-nirvana sentiment than their was a pro-nirvana/fuck Guns N' Roses thing going round. Nirvana weren't even popular by late 93. When Kurt blew his head off, thats when their legendary status came with.

[matt88]

One more thing. If Kurt hadn't blown off his head, where would Nirvana have gone.? Done a Metallica and changed their style awfully and being judged uncool? If they had done that gone would have been the Nirvana that was anti-rock and all that they stood for. Yet they couldn't changed their style for 2 reasons.

A) They would lose their fanbase and their identity..which supposedly killed GN'R and their excess.

B) They can't. They simply weren't talented. They could never have expanded their music.

Or they could have done the same useless crap and become dead and buried(which they were by 94).

[Freya]

There's no doubt that Nevermind is a seminal album (although some of that grunge sound like In Bloom sounds dated and doesn't transcend that), but it's not any more than AFD is.  Tattoos and bandannas were as much fashion for the masses as flannel was a few years later.  Nirvana changed the movement's direction, but besides a few of their contemporaries (Alice, Soundgarden) it was still shit bands posing in what they thought was cool at the moment, same as the Strip.  And ultimately, it didn't change anything.  It was a great pop/rock album (I say that because the melodies are so infectious) , by a great songwriter, but let's not overstate it. 

AFD still sounds fresh as ever when you listen to it, it's always going to be at the top of the hard rock classics, unless someone tops it, which seems unlikely at this point, but we remain hopeful.  The Illusions are more dated, there are a few gems here and there, but too disjointed to be a classic really.  And the Illusion demos sound better than the over-produced album. 

[Neemo]

It was a great pop/rock album (I say that because the melodies are so infectious) , by a great songwriter, but let's not overstate it.?

Fuckin' Right!!! I, at least, still can't help but sing whenever I hear that album. And you can listen to that fucking cd front to back, I haven't seen shit like that happen in a while!! Virtually every song on nevermind could've been a hit.

The Illusions are more dated, there are a few gems here and there, but too disjointed to be a classic really. 

Agreed, and lets not forget to get the whole UYI experience you have to listen to damn near 1.5 hours of music. and lets face it its hard to sit down and listen to anything for that length of time. As great as the UYI's are the 2 album thing is just too long, and personally I find I skip alot of the tracks anyway to get to the songs I'd rather hear than shit like "bad apples" or "locomotive" or "right next door to hell" or "so fine" etc, etc. I still think they should've condensed them fuckers down to one CD. it would've been better. IMHO

[Zerocool2]

The point I tired to make while starting this thread was that kids know rock 'n' roll and GNR is it.  GnR has remained and I find the title of the upcoming book "The Band That Time Forgot" trully insulting as no one has forgot about them.

I am 20 years old and GnR came into my life when I was nine and I never forgot that first image of them in November Rain video when they performed on the stage.  I saw it and from then on I knew that that was what a rock band was.  I still feel that way today.

Gnr speaks to every generation unlike a lot of bands.  Their music transcends.  Music is a language and it is no surpirse that it is something that the youth and adults can understand.  All songs can tell a story of our lives.  I hear Jungle and get that feeling that I got when wrestling in high school.  November Rain tells the story of my first love.  And Don't cry is when i got my heart stepped on.  I wasn't around when these stories were written but I understand them even thoughI am younger to alot of the original fan base.

I guess what I am saying is that GnR is the real deal, the last great rock band.  And even the kids know it.  It's not about a generation's band.  we don't look at GNR and say "that's something my dad listens too" or "that's a band my babysitter was into, who cares about them?"  GnR continues because their music is great and is something that you don't have to be from a certain generation to get.

Nevermind did not change my life.  All of GnR's stuff did.  In reading the greatest GnR momeents of your life section on this board i saw that a lot of kids had the fav. moment of just hearing the tunes or seeing it on MTV on a "Best of the 90's" show.  No one else may have gotten it but we did.

I just wanted to know if others around my age felt the same way I did.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

I don't really think Guns have acheived the test of time, not like the beatles and zepplin anyway, first of all they only have 4 records!! then they imploded. It remains to be seen if Axl can stand the test of time. In time he may reach the level of Ozzy, then, like Black Sabbath, Guns will be remembered because it was Axl's first shot at fame, that's why I have always thought Axl should drop the G'n'R name.

As far as Nirvana is concerned, they did start a movement, Mother love bone sucked!! Nirvana sparked the interest and Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Screaming Trees, Sonic Youth, AIC, STP etc. etc. started getting contracts.? Whether or not Nirvana came up with the idea first is irrelevant the were recognized first, and as I recall no-one saw that change coming, from my perspective I identified with the grunge type of music more than the overblown Hair Metal (And Yes they Fucking Were HAIR MEtal!!! Look at some old pics if you doubt me), mind you I still love that type of music to this day, G'n'R included, they just were way to large to identify with any longer.? I don't think though that Nirvana started the one hit wonder thing (Cause they had alot more than One fucking hit!!!) That came later with bands like Live, The Breeders, Meat Puppets, etc. etc. coupled with the easy to duplicate sound of Green Day. I'm not saying Either that grunge is not easy to duplicate, but those bands had an aura or charisma about them that was specific to a couple of years and no-one has duplicated it since.

With Nirvana (or other Grunge Bands) not producing something like Estranged or November Rain, of course they didn't, it was everything they were against, grunge was always 3-4 guys with a raw sound of playing instruments and singing in a generic sort of way, gone were the days of high pitched screams, horn & string sections, and synth.

The beatles imploded also, they just put out more albums than guns n roses did.
I dont know how you can say gnr have not stood the test of time, AFD if im not mistaken is still on billboards top 200 list and that came out in 87, the GHs is still strong also, and I think its still in the top 50, not to bad for a band that has not put out a new album of original material since 1991. 


As for mother love bone suck, they were still way ahead of the curve before nirvana came along and like  I said before Neil Young really started it all but gets little to no credit.  The only reason they were recognized first was because of MTV.

About green day, green day came out before nirvana i hate to tell you.  Green day were just underground at first then got popular with the dookie album. 

Like I stated  before, nirvana and its clones set back music 20 years instead of music progressing it  got worse.

[Neemo]

The beatles imploded also, they just put out more albums than guns n roses did.
I dont know how you can say gnr have not stood the test of time, AFD if im not mistaken is still on billboards top 200 list and that came out in 87, the GHs is still strong also, and I think its still in the top 50, not to bad for a band that has not put out a new album of original material since 1991.?


As for mother love bone suck, they were still way ahead of the curve before nirvana came along and like? I said before Neil Young really started it all but gets little to no credit.? The only reason they were recognized first was because of MTV.

About green day, green day came out before nirvana i hate to tell you.? Green day were just underground at first then got popular with the dookie album.?

Like I stated? before, nirvana and its clones set back music 20 years instead of music progressing it? got worse.

It doesn't matter where in the curve? motherlovebone was Nirvana brought that type of music to the forefront (whether or not it was because of MTV is irrelivant) Nevermind caught the public's eye and as a result the other bands became popular. and don't forget Nirvana was also "underground" at one time as well (AKA bleach). From what I understand Nevermind was a collection of the best songs Nirvana had. It was produced to be a huge success. Neil Young Blows he didn't start shit except use Pearl Jam to rejuvinate his career. I don't know how that asshole got involved with this conversation he's not even of the same genre as GnR, or Nirvana or Zepplin or anything He's a folk singer dude!

And about Billboard Music chart, how can you say radio and MTV don't mean shit but Billboards Top 200 List is the "be all, end all" of music!! fuck man its all from basically the same source (the media!!).

GnR;s name have kinda stood the test of time (18 years worth anyway) but you don't hear all that much on the radio except WTTJ (at least I don't in canada anyway) Nirvana is like 12 years or something they are definately not withstood the test of time like Queen, Zepplin, BEatles, WHo, Rolling Stones Blacksabbath, and those guys.

I don't know I grew up listening to G'n'R so to me they are just a band. the older bands are like timeless to me cause they were around and (basically) gone before I was born (or old enough to remember). Fuck ,the stones are still together and Blacksabbath has been doing reunion tours for years them guys are icons. Maybe to the younger crowd (who got into GnR after UYI's were out of the spotlight) G'nR has withstood the test of time, but not to me.

on a side note: does anyone know how long the beatles were together? and how many albums they made? and how many covers they recorded? How many singles?

G'n'R in its original form was together from afd to just before UYI's (86-90, maybe 5 years). they recorded 4 albums (one of which was all cover tunes) and 1 half-album (Lies). On those 5 albums they recorded a total of 16 cover tunes. According to this site G'n'R had 16 singles (4 were covers). Now don't get me wrong, G'n'R are one of my all-time favorite bands. But IMHO a band that lasted 5 years didn't withstand the test of time.

OK i Looked int o the Beatles thing, they were together 8 years, had 24 albums and 34 singles (27 of which went to #1) I don't think they recorded any cover songs.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

I dont know what part of the country you are in, but here in boston ma, we have three station that play guns n roses.
one being classic rock and the other two are just rock, and they play these gnr songs and more but these are what i have heard over the past month, WTTJ, brownstone, pc, nov rain, my michelle, used to love her, patience, just to name a few.

As for mtv vs billboard, mtv just doesnt play music anymore so you cant count them, as for billboard it shows that AFD still sells over 15 years later, and that shows they have stood the test of time.  And gnr were not around for 5 years, it was 86-93 which is 7, it doesnt matter that they lost members because every band loses members.  Its not about quanity of work its about quality, a band can come up with just one album and that album can stand the test of time.

ps
The beatles were together for just about ten years.

[Neemo]

I said the original lineup was together 5 years. Beatles were together 8 

[dave-gnfnr2k]

I said the original lineup was together 5 years. Beatles were together 8?

Right but a lot of bands lost members, like the stones, aerosmith (for a few years), metallica etc etc.
Even nirvana lost members, they were a four piece band for bleach then dropped two guys and got dave.

So are you going to just say nirvana started in 91 with nevermind?

[Neemo]

In the form in which they got famous, yeah. Or as the general public know, whatever.

Besides when they lost Izzy it was the beginning of the end. I think Izzy & Duff were the mediators between Slash and Axl.

[ppbebe]

GnR;s name have kinda stood the test of time (18 years worth anyway) but you don't hear all that much on the radio except WTTJ (at least I don't in canada anyway) Nirvana is like 12 years or something they are definately not withstood the test of time like Queen, Zepplin, BEatles, WHo, Rolling Stones Blacksabbath, and those guys.

OK i Looked int o the Beatles thing, they were together 8 years, had 24 albums and 34 singles (27 of which went to #1) I don't think they recorded any cover songs.

Sorry but from the worldwide point of view, I think Who or Blacksabbath is not so well known anymore.
Actually none of my friends knows them. Conversely Nirvana, GNR or even the Smiths is still getting new fans.
Personally I don't see Nirvana in 10 yrs time tho.

I know Zep experts say that Zep made only 4 superb albums. Also I hear most excellent bands tend to stay excellent musically only for several years. I conjecture the band chemistry has its best before date and when it expires the band has a few options left. Beatles was exceptional. And perhaps the one GNR has taken is the first ever. What do you guys think?

[dave-gnfnr2k]

In the form in which they got famous, yeah. Or as the general public know, whatever.

Besides when they lost Izzy it was the beginning of the end. I think Izzy & Duff were the mediators between Slash and Axl.

You cant have it both ways.
You cant say it doesnt matter for nirvana but does for guns n roses.
You have to remain consistant.

[MadmanDan]

Guns N' Roses are legends and they will be legends forever(duuuh) because they sold albums without compromising their artistic integrity. They sang and wrote from the heart.Songs like SCOM,WTTJ,NR or Estranged weren't written to make money or make them popular or sell albums.They were written because that's how Axl felt at the moments he wrote them.


No matter what people say,it's not a matter of taste,it's a fact: Kurt Cobain had mediocre voice,guitar skills and songwriting abbilities. Nirvana is the most overrated band ever,fucking up music for 10 years.I say that because every crap rock band these days has a little bit of Nirvana in their sound.

When things get rough,blow your fuckin' head off!!! Hey kids,don't you wanna grow up to be just like me??

[St.heathen]

 It's a bit harsh joking about something as serious as suicide.  I personally think it is selfish when you have family and you leave them with all that confusion and hurt. But you know it must have been 
I'm not a big Nirvana fan, i never thought a great deal of them, but they are ok.  I can listen to them once and a while and it's a reminder .. yeh don't mind that.  I think "In Utero" and "Unplugged"  was the best work they did.  Nevermind wore out quite quickly but still has some classic songs on there. If you're a fan of music then you can't denie that "Lithium" and "Come as you are" are good songs and there are a couple more on there that i can't remember, but yeh Nirvana changed millions of peoples lives just like GN'R did.

 They inspired kids to buy guitars and try and write songs.  Even if they were/are crap it doesn't matter, it makes people appriciate the good stuff.  GNR's recent comeback in sales is because people realise just how  fucking good they were. And because since GNR most of whats being passed as rock is shit lol 


Nevermind will always be rememberd - it was a huge album.  Not for me personally but for millions it's true. 

Appetite though is just in a different world completely.

[gnr157]

From what Tommy is saying, Axl's album may be too complex and "mature" for a teen audience to grasp, just my opinion.?

I think some kids might find the Axl style epics refreshing...Hell I was in junior high when the UYI came out and I was blown away by estranged, Civil War, Coma, etc...not that I fully understood those songs (and I'm not sure if I even do now) but maybe some kids are looking for something a little more challenging...of course maybe I putting too much faith in today's youth....

[Dr. Blutarsky]

 Look at the music scene now, kids don`t have any real good bands out there to pick from unless they look into the older stuff.

[Neemo]

In the form in which they got famous, yeah. Or as the general public know, whatever.

Besides when they lost Izzy it was the beginning of the end. I think Izzy & Duff were the mediators between Slash and Axl.

You cant have it both ways.
You cant say it doesnt matter for nirvana but does for guns n roses.
You have to remain consistant.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Nirvana's "original" lineup was how it was when Curt died. I say original because Curt, Krist and Dave were Nirvana when they made it big.

When G'n'R made it big it was Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steven (How come he was the only guy without a nickname? I always wondered that  ) in 89 or 90 (it doesn't matter) steven was fired then shortly afterwards Izzy quit. IMO that was the beginning of the end, because Izzy was a huge songwriting presence (they still haven't officially released anything he didn't help write btw)