The Biden administration (was: The NEW 2020 Election Thread)

[pilferk]

I haven't watched it yet but i heard Trump the whole night interrupted and talked over both Biden and Wallace.

It's SO much more than that, tim.

Essentially, this was another attack on our election process.  

[pilferk]

Is anyone surprised?

You can't debate with a liar and someone who can't let you finish a sentence.





/jarmo

You can't debate with someone who isn't there to debate.  Trump wasn't there to debate.  He was there to try (and he failed on a pretty epic scale) to rattle Biden, to try to perpetuate his "mental decline" talking point, and to keep Joe from being able to impart ANY information.  He was there to loudly lie and shout debunked talking points.

In short, he was there to break the system.  He was there in bad faith.

Which....in any other time in American history....would be an instant disqualifier.  He would lose in a landslide.  Everyone in his party would have condemned him.

But not his supporters.

[jarmo]

To his supporters he owned the libs!




/jarmo

[pilferk]

To his supporters he owned the libs!




/jarmo

EXACTLY.

They don't care about policy.  They don't care about the country. They don't care about democracy.  They don't care about ANYTHING but that.

The ends justify the means.  As long as "their team" owns the other team, by whatever means necessary...and as long as THEIR team remains in power so they can continue to "pwn" the other team...they're happy.  That's all it takes.

PUNISH THOSE DAMN LIBS! as they wreck our democracy.

If he can't win, Trump just wants to watch Rome burn.  And his supporters want to bring the popcorn.

Exactly what the rest of the country told his supporters was going to happen is happening.  He's going to try to take the entire country down, if he loses, in his little baby tantrum.

[jarmo]

As kids, we are often taught how things work in the real world. Look both ways before crossing the street, don't lick a lamppost when it's freezing outside and it's not polite to interrupt others while they're speaking.

Most people once they get to a certain age have all this knowledge and know how to act. Others just act like they're still five years old and can get their way by yelling.


Just proves the point that certain things you can't buy. And your background doesn't matter. You can be a decent human being and it doesn't matter what your background is.






/jarmo

[PermissionToLand]

There is only one word to describe Trump in this debate: WEAK.

Biden was confident and surefooted. While Trump threw a tantrum, Biden displayed what adult leadership looks like.

[cineater]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  During a pandemic businesses have been hit hard with cash going out.  I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?  How many people initially signed up for it and then dropped it?  You hear about how many people got covered and preexisting conditions but you don't hear a lot about the people who passed on the program or dropped it.

It was hard to pick out the issues in that mess.

[tim_m]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  During a pandemic businesses have been hit hard with cash going out.  I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?  How many people initially signed up for it and then dropped it?  You hear about how many people got covered and preexisting conditions but you don't hear a lot about the people who passed on the program or dropped it.

It was hard to pick out the issues in that mess.

I'm not sure, but Trump trying to end it during the pandemic with no plan to replace it isn't a good idea. There would be a lot more covered if all governors did the medicare expansion. In my state that would cover an additional 2 million Texans. We have the lowest number of insured people in the country. If Biden gets in i hope he can get the public option. The debate really was a shit show like  Dana Bash said. There's no other way to put it.

[pilferk]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  During a pandemic businesses have been hit hard with cash going out.  I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

Which allows small businesses (who are not turning the same types of profits the megacorporations are) to then compete on price, which the US consumer has proved is king. That's good for you, good for communities, and good for anyone looking to start a small business.  And then that drives the megacorporations to drop their prices back down, because otherwise they collapse.

Price pressure is consumer and market driven.  Not tax driven. Have you seen significant price cuts on goods since the large corporate tax cuts?  They have thrived under similar tax rates under Reagan, Bush I and Clinton.  Those rates weren't TOO far off what they were under Obama (about 2%) where companies amassed huge warchests.  Biden isn't proposing going back to the days of the US's biggest economic expansion...which were in the mid 30's in terms of percentages.  

And the alternative is we let corporations, who are generating HUGE profits, pay nothing into the system.  You put the entire burden of collective societal needs on the backs of those making the least.  That's hardly fair, considering the corporations are the ones using the MOST resources (infrastructure, labor, logistics).  When you are the biggest consumer and you are paying nothing....you are freeloading on the american people.  The "jobs" they're providing don't offset their consumption. Not by half.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?  How many people initially signed up for it and then dropped it?  You hear about how many people got covered and preexisting conditions but you don't hear a lot about the people who passed on the program or dropped it.

It was hard to pick out the issues in that mess.

I'm not seeing your point.  There are 20 million more people who are insured under Obamacare.  That's not "who have been insured".  That's who are currently insured.  I'm sure there are those who had picked it up and dropped it....just like people take and then drop private insurance because premiums have increased.  The thing is, in MOST states (the ones who accepted Medicaid expansion), premium growth has slowed WAY down and competition on the marketplace is still a thing. It was even MORE of a thing until Trump waged war against the ACA and introduced uncertainty into the market.

There are 27.5 million people still not covered as of 2019. I'm not using the 2020 number of uninsured because it's hard to know how many of those are linked to unemployment due to Covid.  The number has ticked UP every year since Trump took office (2017 - 2019) and started to try to dismantle the ACA.  It had ticked down every year since the ACA had been enacted (2009 - 2016).

So I guess the answer to your question is: Under Obama, when the ACA was being supported, more people were insured every year.  As soon as Trump took office, and tried to do away with the ACA, more and more people have "lost" their insurance.

The ACA isn't perfect.  It needs adjustments and fixes.  Biden acknowledges that.  Trump just wants to end it, with ZERO plan in place to replace it.  If he (or the Repubs in the legislature) had one, they'd be running on it.  Their plan is...no plan.

[PermissionToLand]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  

Seriously? If the cost is passed along instead of veing absorbed by the record profits they've been making since the great recession, that is on their leadership for greed, period. You don't blame the cops for enforcing the law because criminals will hurt other people in trying to avoid them.

I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending

That is not how it works. If anything, spending will jump up because of all the purchases that were put off for the past few months. It's like how after the great recession, there was a jump in car sales because of all the purchases put off. We know that now for a fact.

especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

I have not seen price increases.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?

"felt they were healthy"? You're asking how many people were idiots?

[PermissionToLand]

Trump just wants to end it, with ZERO plan in place to replace it.  If he (or the Repubs in the legislature) had one, they'd be running on it.  Their plan is...no plan.

That was an underreported faceplant Trump had in the debate; he was asked repeatedly to explain where his plan was and he sputtered and stammered around making excuses and attacking Biden. That was his whole strategy all night; he never offered a single policy prescription, he simply attacked Biden all night. The pivots when he was asked directly about policy were whiplash inducing.

[tim_m]

Trump just wants to end it, with ZERO plan in place to replace it.  If he (or the Repubs in the legislature) had one, they'd be running on it.  Their plan is...no plan.

That was an underreported faceplant Trump had in the debate; he was asked repeatedly to explain where his plan was and he sputtered and stammered around making excuses and attacking Biden. That was his whole strategy all night; he never offered a single policy prescription, he simply attacked Biden all night. The pivots when he was asked directly about policy were whiplash inducing.

Only thing he came up with was his EO about prescription drug prices, which if it helps great, but if he wants ACA gone he needs a viable plan to replace it. Without it we go back to how it was before and that's bad for everyone.

[PermissionToLand]

Only thing he came up with was his EO about prescription drug prices, which if it helps great, but if he wants ACA gone he needs a viable plan to replace it. Without it we go back to how it was before and that's bad for everyone.

It really is an insult to the intelligence of the American people that he would except us to believe a single EO is sufficient healthcare reform.

[pilferk]

I watched part of his speech last night in MN.

More lies, more xenophobia, more complete bullshit.

Biden was right. He's a complete clown.  I don't know how ANYONE can't be bored of this act.  All bluster, no substance.

[cineater]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  During a pandemic businesses have been hit hard with cash going out.  I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?  How many people initially signed up for it and then dropped it?  You hear about how many people got covered and preexisting conditions but you don't hear a lot about the people who passed on the program or dropped it.

It was hard to pick out the issues in that mess.

I'm not sure, but Trump trying to end it during the pandemic with no plan to replace it isn't a good idea. There would be a lot more covered if all governors did the medicare expansion. In my state that would cover an additional 2 million Texans. We have the lowest number of insured people in the country. If Biden gets in i hope he can get the public option. The debate really was a shit show like  Dana Bash said. There's no other way to put it.

We did medicaid expansion.  During the pandemic all people who are on medicaid were not thrown off even if they became ineligible.  What I didn't get in what Biden said was about Rx.  In my state you get Rx with Medicaid (small copays) but for adults it can be a complicated process to keep continued coverage.  One of my problems with Medicaid is there is no adult dental or vision with it.

[cineater]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  During a pandemic businesses have been hit hard with cash going out.  I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

Which allows small businesses (who are not turning the same types of profits the megacorporations are) to then compete on price, which the US consumer has proved is king. That's good for you, good for communities, and good for anyone looking to start a small business.  And then that drives the megacorporations to drop their prices back down, because otherwise they collapse.

Price pressure is consumer and market driven.  Not tax driven. Have you seen significant price cuts on goods since the large corporate tax cuts?  They have thrived under similar tax rates under Reagan, Bush I and Clinton.  Those rates weren't TOO far off what they were under Obama (about 2%) where companies amassed huge warchests.  Biden isn't proposing going back to the days of the US's biggest economic expansion...which were in the mid 30's in terms of percentages.  

And the alternative is we let corporations, who are generating HUGE profits, pay nothing into the system.  You put the entire burden of collective societal needs on the backs of those making the least.  That's hardly fair, considering the corporations are the ones using the MOST resources (infrastructure, labor, logistics).  When you are the biggest consumer and you are paying nothing....you are freeloading on the american people.  The "jobs" they're providing don't offset their consumption. Not by half.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?  How many people initially signed up for it and then dropped it?  You hear about how many people got covered and preexisting conditions but you don't hear a lot about the people who passed on the program or dropped it.

It was hard to pick out the issues in that mess.

I'm not seeing your point.  There are 20 million more people who are insured under Obamacare.  That's not "who have been insured".  That's who are currently insured.  I'm sure there are those who had picked it up and dropped it....just like people take and then drop private insurance because premiums have increased.  The thing is, in MOST states (the ones who accepted Medicaid expansion), premium growth has slowed WAY down and competition on the marketplace is still a thing. It was even MORE of a thing until Trump waged war against the ACA and introduced uncertainty into the market.

There are 27.5 million people still not covered as of 2019. I'm not using the 2020 number of uninsured because it's hard to know how many of those are linked to unemployment due to Covid.  The number has ticked UP every year since Trump took office (2017 - 2019) and started to try to dismantle the ACA.  It had ticked down every year since the ACA had been enacted (2009 - 2016).

So I guess the answer to your question is: Under Obama, when the ACA was being supported, more people were insured every year.  As soon as Trump took office, and tried to do away with the ACA, more and more people have "lost" their insurance.

The ACA isn't perfect.  It needs adjustments and fixes.  Biden acknowledges that.  Trump just wants to end it, with ZERO plan in place to replace it.  If he (or the Repubs in the legislature) had one, they'd be running on it.  Their plan is...no plan.

Small businesses doesn't offer the employee benefits and better wages, the livable wage, that one gets by being employed by a corporation.  Small business in my mind doesn't have much impact on driving prices down for lots of reasons.  Mega corps can take a loss on price and make up for it in other products.  Try to find your local run hardware store.  They all went down to Lowes and Home Depot.  You seem to think all corporations make huge profits.  I agree WalMart made everybody look bad but they took those profits and opened a store in almost every town.  There's profits and then there's what the corporation does with profits.  If I want them to "go green" they need profits to make those changes.  And while I love going green, that shit ain't cheap.

My questions about the insurance is along the lines of how to improve it or fix it.  If the healthy people don't buy it, the cost goes up.  If it's bleeding money, it's not sustainable.  And if the coverage is shit, is it really doing what it needs to do for people?  I have insurance so I didn't pay much attention to it until the people who I thought should get it started telling me some of the issues with it.  It really got my attention when one of the contractors here that signed people up dropped the contract with the government and laid off 2 shits at two locations that previously couldn't hire enough people to fill the decent paying jobs.

[cineater]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  

Seriously? If the cost is passed along instead of veing absorbed by the record profits they've been making since the great recession, that is on their leadership for greed, period. You don't blame the cops for enforcing the law because criminals will hurt other people in trying to avoid them.

I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending

That is not how it works. If anything, spending will jump up because of all the purchases that were put off for the past few months. It's like how after the great recession, there was a jump in car sales because of all the purchases put off. We know that now for a fact.

especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

I have not seen price increases.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?

"felt they were healthy"? You're asking how many people were idiots?

So if we go with corporations are making record profits why does the government get it in taxes?  Why can't the government force them to increase employee benefits, lower prices, "go green"?

Go in the grocery store.  Go in Home Depot if you want to see price increases.  Go out to dinner.  The last thing I'm doing after being out of work or having my income reduced is spend.  I'm catching up the bills.  I'm worried about my tax bill at the end of the year when I've been drawing unemployment.  I'm cutting cost wherever I can.  Never imagine something like this could have happened in the first place and I'm stashing money away in case this sort of thing comes around again.

There were people who took the tax consequence because the insurance premium was higher than the tax.  They took the risk they wouldn't get sick and need health insurance.  There are people who would rather put their money elsewhere.  Not a choice I would want to make.  Some people are idiots and some people's budgets are just that tight.  Have I paid less for insurance knowing the high deductibles would take me years to pay off if something happened?  Yes I have, it was just that tight.

[tim_m]

I'm worried about raising the corporate tax rate especially during/after a pandemic.  I feel like the cost gets passed along to the consumer and out of employee's wages and benefits in normal times.  During a pandemic businesses have been hit hard with cash going out.  I think consumers have to play catch up to get back to stability and will reduce spending especially with prices already going up to cover the losses during the pandemic.

I would like to know how many people still lack the health insurance because they felt they were healthy and the cost of the insurance, both in premiums and high deductibles, was not worth it to them to get in on Obama care?  How many people initially signed up for it and then dropped it?  You hear about how many people got covered and preexisting conditions but you don't hear a lot about the people who passed on the program or dropped it.

It was hard to pick out the issues in that mess.

I'm not sure, but Trump trying to end it during the pandemic with no plan to replace it isn't a good idea. There would be a lot more covered if all governors did the medicare expansion. In my state that would cover an additional 2 million Texans. We have the lowest number of insured people in the country. If Biden gets in i hope he can get the public option. The debate really was a shit show like  Dana Bash said. There's no other way to put it.

We did medicaid expansion.  During the pandemic all people who are on medicaid were not thrown off even if they became ineligible.  What I didn't get in what Biden said was about Rx.  In my state you get Rx with Medicaid (small copays) but for adults it can be a complicated process to keep continued coverage.  One of my problems with Medicaid is there is no adult dental or vision with it.

Yeah the no dental no eye care downside really sucks like really really sucks.

[tim_m]

The president and first lady have contracted covid-19. As well as Hope Hicks. Now we have to worry if McConnell might have it, Amy Coney Barrett and several top Trump aides as well as Pence. Hopefully he didn't pass it on to Biden, Wallace or anyone else at the debate or anyone at his recent rallies.

[pilferk]

Small businesses doesn't offer the employee benefits and better wages, the livable wage, that one gets by being employed by a corporation.

So...thats not really true.  The MegaCorporations (like Walmart and Amazon..who would see the most in tax increases in terms of dollars) pay their employees LESS and have more employees on state benefits than do small businesses.

Corporations don't pay higher wages for comparable positions.  In fact, they set the floor for wages in most service and blue collar positions. That has JUST started to change, in the face of public pressure and threats to institute a federal minimum wage...but small businesses have led the way on that, not lagged behind.

Small business in my mind doesn't have much impact on driving prices down for lots of reasons.  Mega corps can take a loss on price and make up for it in other products.  Try to find your local run hardware store.  They all went down to Lowes and Home Depot.

You just made my argument for me.  You said if taxes go up, prices go up.  But that's really only true, under Biden's plan, for corporations. If that happened (it wouldn't), it would give small business an advantage on pricing. And as you're saying, most corporations are better positioned to absorb the tax increase across a larger volume of sales so as NOT to give up their pricing advantage to small businesses.

You're right. Small business, right now, doesn't effect prices because they are competing on an unlevel that playing field. Forcing corporations to pay a tax rate commesurate with, or slightly higher than, the small business helps level that playing field.

Honestly, I'm not attached to the higher tax rate.  I would take a closing of corporate loop holes to ensure that corporations PAY ACTUAL TAXES.  But closing those loop holes is a more convoluted process than is just raising the rate so it's harder to offset their tax liability to zero.

The point is: Corporate tax contributions, year over year (especially in terms of total tax revenue) has gone down precipitously and individuals and small businesses have gone up considerably.  There needs to be fairness reintroduced to the tax code so that everyone is paying their fair share.

 You seem to think all corporations make huge profits.  I agree WalMart made everybody look bad but they took those profits and opened a store in almost every town.  There's profits and then there's what the corporation does with profits.  If I want them to "go green" they need profits to make those changes.  And while I love going green, that shit ain't cheap.

You only pay taxes on profit, not revenue.  So the tax rate only effects you if you're making money.  The more money you make, the more dollars you pay. To note: I know you know this...I'm just pointing it out because it clarifies things. So, yes, it effects the companies like Walmart and Amazon.  And Walmart wasn't "opening stores in every town" in the past few years (which is when the tax rate dropped to what it is).  In fact, they are now CLOSING stores. And taking record profits.  In addition, their employees, per capita, cost tax payers a LOT.  Because tax payers are covering health care and supplementing their income.  Instead of Walmart taking care of their own. WE are taking care of them.  That's not capitalism.  It's government supported corporate slavery. It's robber baron-ism.

If you want them to "go green", you want Biden in office.  Because they will get tax deductions for those efforts...they will remain expenses they can write off, lowering their profits (and their tax burden). In fact, he will likely increase the "value" of those corporate deductions.  His Environmental plan lays out exactly that.

My questions about the insurance is along the lines of how to improve it or fix it.  If the healthy people don't buy it, the cost goes up.  If it's bleeding money, it's not sustainable.  And if the coverage is shit, is it really doing what it needs to do for people?  I have insurance so I didn't pay much attention to it until the people who I thought should get it started telling me some of the issues with it.  It really got my attention when one of the contractors here that signed people up dropped the contract with the government and laid off 2 shits at two locations that previously couldn't hire enough people to fill the decent paying jobs.

Trump removed the individual mandate, thus requiring that healthy people not buy it.

Obamacare wasn't bleeding money, in those states that expanded Medicaid, until Trump introduced anarchy into the ACA markets.  Insurers in those states were competing in the marketplace, premiums were stable, Insurance companies were making money, and the CBO showed it was saving the country hundreds of millions of dollars.  

When did that contractor drop that contract?

Here's the thing: There is no such thing as free health care.  YOU are paying for other people's healthcare either via insurance and via higher taxes and via higher healthcare costs (because if an institution offers services for those that are gravely ill...which they are required to do....and that person can't pay, they have to recoup those costs somehow).

So, at the end of the day, its all about how we mitigate those costs.  What's Trumps plan for that?  We know Bidens.  The ACA worked, if not perfectly. Everyone acknowledges it needs some adjustment, with ideas on just what those adjustments are.

Trump has nothing except "abolish the ACA".

Pefection is the enemy of progress.

Edit: Is it sad that this is a more effective, more informative, conversation than anything that went on during the debate?